S/C Jaycar - Continued

Posted: 2/27/2011 6:09:06 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

[i]"Upper harmonics appear only when pin2 and C30 are in place while without R42 and R40."[/i]

This is strange! There should not be enough signal coupled back to Q8:C via R44-R43-C30 (R44 is 4M7 so should be almost irrelevant)

Two possibilities come to mind - IMO both are obscure and unlikely..

1.) If any signal appears on IC1:A pins 4 or 5, which is greater than 2/3 the supply to this IC, then the IC can go into phase reversal (a undesired condition) which would produce high current spikes and may cause (here I am guessing) current to be sunk or sourced from these input pins.

2.) There are likely to be fast edges on the square wave from pin 2, and these could couple capacitively to other tracks if the layout is poor.. A fix for this - [b]See correction at end of this posting [/b] But - oops.. you might find that slugging the edges will cause problems for the pitch-CV circuit..

In fact.. looking at this circuit fills me with utter horror! Everything is out-of-balance.. C40.R42 will charge via R51 during the +VE output, and discharge without any current limiting via pin 2 when this goes low.. this will generate a substantial (but extremely fast)current spike! .

If you do not need the CV out, remove C40, C28, Q5 (you can leave the other components as they are effectively then out-of-circuit) - This alone may fix some of the audio problems, otherwise try my suggestion in (2) as well.

Fred.

[b] ADDED CORRECTION ->[/b]

My original suggestion in (2) was flawed.. it would have produced a much slower rising edge than the falling one..

You would need to add a 15k pull-up resistor connected directly to pin 2, and have a 10k resistor between pin 2 and R15.R42.R44, and a 1nF from this point to ground. C40,Q5,C28 would need to be removed, and the signal level at R42.R51 qould be reduced by 50% and have a DC offset which you could eliminate (but I dont think you will need to) by having a capacitor (220n) in series with R42. You may need to decrease the value of R42 or R40 to increase the square wave audio level - do not reduce these to below 100k.. I would go for reducing R40 to 220k first.

Increasing the value of the capacitor (lets call this the filter capacitor) between R15.R42 to ground will soften the square wave edges - at 1nF you should not notice any filtering effects (other than, hopefully, curing the spikes) as it rolls off at above 10kHz - at 3n3 it will start rolling off harmonics above 3kHz.
Posted: 2/28/2011 4:07:11 PM
Arsimantur

From: Poland

Joined: 5/29/2010

I had to increase R39 to 220k to stop clipping in VCA.

I made some additional measures with everything in place. Waveform and spectrum on R39.C36.R40 doesn't change with or without pin2. Changes are noticeble on pin6 of IC2 - audio output.

So it seems that problem is the comparator which pollutes VCA through power rails even sections had been separated and conected through 10R+10uF - 4,1V and shorted100R+1uF - 8,2V.

Without pin2 sound is way better than before upgrade. There is decent close to sine wave. I think every theremax user has noticed this distortion. I it would be great if any theremax user could remove C30 or pin2 and tell if he noticed any change in sound. It isn't oscillator locking, it isn't comparator signal comming through R42 even timbre pot set on sine and it isn't square escaping through C30 to Q8. Hope you have any idea how to solve it as I think theremax users may benefit from it.

EDIT: It seems that filter isn't well calculated as it gives cut at about 1600Hz. Will change it.
Posted: 2/28/2011 5:30:34 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

[i]"So it seems that problem is the comparator which pollutes VCA through power rails even sections had been separated and conected through 10R+10uF - 4,1V and shorted100R+1uF - 8,2V." [/i]

I would be most surprised if this is a power coupling issue - Not sure what modifications you have now done, but if C40 is removed and the filter components fitted, drain from the comparator should not be significant.. I assume you have a 100n good quality ceramic capacitor across IC1 power pins.

[i]"It seems that filter isn't well calculated as it gives cut at about 1600Hz. Will change it."[/i]

Yes, I see the problem .. oops! .. was looking at pin 2 as if it was driven, not a pull-down.. in fact, on the +Ve edge, the TC resistance is the sum of the pull-up and series resistance (makes it 25k instead of 10k) - and there is no way to make charge / discharge symetrical.. So just set it for about 20kHz or whatever eliminates spikes and sounds good.


Fred.

Posted: 3/2/2011 12:34:43 PM
Arsimantur

From: Poland

Joined: 5/29/2010

C43 removed, tried to add 10n or 100n directly under IC. Increased capacitors to 1000uF in RC filters. Tried to remove C40, as I don't know it's purpose. Still no luck. You said to set filters to 20kHz, so I should use 1uF (16kHz), not 10uf or 1000uF?
Posted: 3/2/2011 8:42:39 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

[i]"You said to set filters to 20kHz, so I should use 1uF (16kHz), not 10uf or 1000uF?"[/i]

.... Errrr.. I dont know what you are talking about here.. sorry! Which capacitors?

The "filter" I was refering to was the added one on the output of the comparator (R15.R44 to 0V) - you are, I think, talking about the power supply capacitors as there is certainly no place for a 10u in the filter!

I think perhaps the communication re schematics, without actually drawing the schematics, is not helping.. I will do a quick schematic and post it here ASAP.

Fred.
Posted: 3/2/2011 10:31:28 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35607/TherMax%20buffer.JPG[/img]

The input filter to the buffer can be changed .. at present values it is set for 153kHz presumably to roll off mixer sum frequency - changing C22 to 4n7 for example, will give a corner frequency of 7kHz .. I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS - It may be that the greater capacitance will have other effects on the mixer circuit.

[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35606/TherMax%20SQW%20Unmod.JPG[/img]

[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35605/TherMax%20SQW%20mod.JPG[/img]

This is a rationalized version of the mods I proposed earlier.. the filter component values shown have a corner frequency of about 15kHz.

The value of R51 will determine the symetry of the rizing and falling edges of the square wave - the lower this resistance, the more symetrical.. However... as this filter is operating to remove any HF components which might be causing problems, and is not intended as a wave-shaping filter, I do not think symetry is at all important - If CX1 was 470p, RX1 = 15k, and R51 = 15k, the assymetry should only relate to harminics well above 10kHz, while the cut-off will be about 20kHz.. Reduce CX1 to 220pF and there will be no possible audible effects, other than the removal of HF harmonics > about 40kHz, which should give an improvement [b]IF[/b] they are the cause of your problems.

[b] Added -> [/b] In fact, reducing the value of R51 [i]might[/i] increase the problems (particularly if decoupling is poor) due to greater current being drawn from the supply.. Keeping R51 at 15k, changing RX1 to 150k, Change CX1 to 68pF (or greater if you want to reduce harmonics / cut-off frequency more) and decreasing R42 to 100k should solve the assymetry problem.

The easiest way to implement this modification is probably to put RX1 in the place of R42, then connect CX1 to the potentiometer (R81) wiper, and connect the other end of CX1 to R42.. oh hell - I need to draw this!

[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35719/modwire.JPG[/img]

[b] EDIT (above IMG Changed) -> [/b]

The above corrects wiring flaw in original, and also changes scheme and greatly simplifies it..

There is no reason why RX1 needs to be in the circuit - just leave R42 at 220k, and put CX1 across the potentiometer.. CX1 will need to be reduced proportionally to compemsate for increased resistance - 47p is probably a good choice - but I would use 100pF for lower cut-off. Square wave level can be trimmed by changing value of R40.


I have no idea about how the ThereMax board is laid out - so the above is just a rough general idea about connections.. If you can fit CX1 on the board with short leads between R42 and 0V, this would be better.

[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35727/TherMax%20SQW%20mod%202.JPG[/img]
Revised modification to SqW Gen.


[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35725/TherMax%20wave%20mix%20mod.JPG[/img]
Modified wave mixer circuit



[img]http://www.element-14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/download/27876-35604/TherMax%20wave%20mix.JPG[/img]
Original wave mix circuit.

Alas, my involvement with this subject must end with this posting .. I have too many other things requiring my concentration. In fact, I will be making far less visits to TW for the next 5 months at least..

Good luck! ;-)

Fred.
Posted: 3/6/2011 3:52:22 AM
Arsimantur

From: Poland

Joined: 5/29/2010

Thank you for your help. I'll do my best to solve my problems and I'll write when I succeed.

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