Moog Music Theremini Reviews

 "I'm seeing new work for Thierry's cottage industry."

That thought had crossed my mind too. :-)

 "Too bad an oscillator swap likely wouldn't fix the latency."

At least software is upgradable. (I have also been wondering who will be the first to jailbreak a theremini.)

""I'm seeing new work for Thierry's cottage industry."" - Dewster

Not for me to say - But I think Thierry is astute enough to avoid getting into this.. I think Thierry is into modifying / improving  theremins, not musical toys.

There may be a handful of people who will be able to get good use from  the theremini for their genre - I can think of only one such person ;-) but there may be a few more..

Lets look at issues related to basic theremini operation (without pitch correction) on the table at this time point..

1.) Appalling linearity. could possibly be improved somewhat with replacement oscillator without software change, but is unlikely to get as good as the EWS linearity without software change.

2.) stunningly abysmal latency. could possibly be improved with replacement oscillator And software change, but it is possible / likely that latency would still be longer than required for "real" playing. (unless someone competent like Dewster was to completely re-write the code)

3.) Lack of manual pitch adjustment*.

4.) Lifeless tone* due to unchanging waveform.

5.) (Unconfirmed) sticky pitch.

*See Wilco's comments.

[technical] With regard to 4 + 5 .. It is my guess that these may be related.. Looking at the waveforms in Dewsters sweeps, I suspect that the theremini produces a complete audio cycle before it checks for the next pitch update.. With low frequency waveforms, a complete audio cycle takes quite a long time (time = 1/frequency ..15ms @ ~64Hz, 10ms @ 100Hz etc)..

With an analogue theremin (or perhaps a better implemented digital theremin) pitch is changed continuously and dynamically by distorting the waveform as the pitch is changing - it is my view that this is probably the single most important charactaristic of the theremin sound..

But what happens if one starts a 15ms cycle for a waveform @ 64Hz while rapidly moving your hand to a new note, but only looks at the pitch value again once this cycle is completed? .. You lose 15ms of pitch change! You jump to new pitch (which is then "latched" for its cycle duration) and you dont get a smooth transition - you get a stream of complete audio cycles stuck together one after another in an extremely unnatural way (nothing naturally produces such a waveform - it is entirely artificial - and I suspect we can hear it even if we cannot "hear" it).

If the hand movement is fast enough, and particularly at the bass end, this could show up as "sticky pitch" .. Oh, there are other mechanisms for sticky pitch as well - and these may also be at play.

[back to modifications]

I dont think the theremini would be worth "modifying" or "improving" by any cottage engineer.. Polish a turd, its still a turd! - Baguette ? Nah, we got that wrong! - its a turd! probably as boxed and  bleached and polished as it needs to be to disguise the fact that its a turd!

For non thereminists:

The theremini is not a theremin, its a (low quality) capacitive sensor driving an Animoog - and may have use as a animoog sound demonstrator or for a few obscure musical applications. Its other potential (and potentially big market) use as a CV controller for synthesizers seems to have been screwed up in another unbelievable bodge - but it probably doesn't matter - with its unplayability and astounding latency, even if CV worked it would be of no use for anything pitch related.

Unless the buying public interested in the theremini are utterly clueless and gullible, I suspect there will be so many returns that this toy will drop in price, production be stopped, and they will have problems getting rid of the returns.

Good news for the handful of people who could actually make use of one, if they are willing to wait and not buy it now!

"The issue appears to be that there just isn't anyone left at Moog who really knows Theremins like Moog did. " - Dewster

I would go further.. it seems there just isn't anyone at Moog who knows theremins as well as you, or I, or almost everyone who has actually looked at the theremin in any depth does,(or at least that if such person/s are at Moog, they have not been involved in the theremini's design, or have been over-ruled by some incompetent hack or bean counter)  that absolutely no thought has gone into the design, that no thereminist has even been talked to. These "engineers" have at their disposal the wealth of all Bob's design notes, have access to the technical files for the E-Pro and E-Vox and 91 series and all the Big Briar specials, Stuff any of us would almost kill for!

Their arrogance and stupidity is offensive to me! Its a bit like the hobbyist/s who have appeared here from time to time saying that they can do with a  IFT based single transistor oscillator what Bob (and Lev) needed an air-wound coil and sophisticated oscillator to do.. They shove a low antenna voltage oscillator into their new product, when everything Bob designed had a healthy antenna voltage - Why do they think Bob did this? Do they think that Bob could not design a simple crap oscillator as they did, that he "over engineered" his designs because he was incompetent or wanted to waste money? -- Their behavior is utterly disrespectful to Bob IMO, and IMO they are nothing but HACKS!

Fred.

Another thought regarding the sticky pitch.  Not a very exact term I know, and big grain of salt since I've spent all of 1 hour or so with the Theremini, maybe 1/2 of that actually "playing" it, and I don't have it here with me now to refer to.  My recollection is that the pitch tracks pretty well with slow hand movements.  The pitch indicator on the screen and the sound of the pitch feel fairly smooth.  But the stepping / sticking happens when making faster changes.  Taking a look at the sweep again:

There seem to be steps roughly 3 per 0.2 seconds, or 0.067 seconds, or 1/15 seconds.  If this is a constant (?) then this is an indication that they are sampling the pitch oscillator at this rate, or updating the audio output at this rate, etc.  Wild speculation: they are killing 50/60 Hz mains hum via aggressive LP filtering.

Lack of preset adjustment via the menus is another pet peeve of mine.  The Theremini only gives you the shallowest of dives with pitch correction strength, delay depth, one of three delay times, pitch start / stop points, and null mute (the mute BTW is very gradual when you move your hand past the lowest note postion).  Everything else is locked away.  Some feel USB adjustment with a SW tool running on a PC / i-Whatever is sufficient for patch editing / management, and with this I strongly disagree.  General computing hardware, interfaces, operating system support, drivers, etc. form a long chain of weak links just waiting to break and deny you access.  Moog could have easily used two encoders and a more informative display (perhaps a standard 2 line LCD instead of the custom one they have) and given us full access to everything in there via the front panel.

I think the average Joe who has zero experience with Theremins will generally have a favorable first impression of the Theremini.  There are knobs to twiddle and presets to try out, it is more mainstream and initially inviting than say the EWS.  Pros will likely know almost instantly that there is something amiss.  The Theremini is a good example of kind of thing Mr. Pringle complains about re. engineers with too little musical experience designing instruments for musicians, which is par for the course in the electronic musical instrument industry, but rather odd for Moog Inc.

Much thanks to Jason for letting us let our hair down here at TW!

Hi Dewster -

I echo your thanks to Jason .. Easy for us to say what we like, but perhaps it gets uncomfortable for him if what we say may hit his pocket.. But he never even hints at any 'problem' or applies any kind of pressure.. I admire and respect that too!

I think you may well be onto something WRT "There seem to be steps roughly 3 per 0.2 seconds, or 0.067 seconds, or 1/15 seconds.  If this is a constant (?) then this is an indication that they are sampling the pitch oscillator at this rate, or updating the audio output at this rate, etc.  Wild speculation: they are killing 50/60 Hz mains hum via aggressive LP filtering."..

Have been checking things I said in my last, doing sample-sample 'analysis' and timing, and found quite a lot that is strange.. I will post this stuff soon, but I set out to look for the typical dynamic changes to the audio waveform that one gets if one is not just reading the update every audio cycle, I had looked at the waveform before and believed that updates were not occurring to the audio cycle, but just wanted to check to be sure.

I am now not 100% sure about what im seeing - I dont see the 'typical' distortion at all, but there is something strange happening to the waveform.. Harmonic content does appear to increase briefly as the frequency is swept rapidly above about 100Hz, and this increase in harmonic content does not seem to be present (or not to the same extent) on slower sweeps. There is also a LPF rolling off HF content as frequency increases, which complicates analysis, and the latency limits the frequency span of fast sweeps, so there is only a few hundred Hz where the effect can be seen..

So im not sure - The latency and non-linearity (assuming your movements were consistent) is stark and astoundingly obvious, but I am not sure about the other matter or about sticky pitch.. I haven't yet found any cycles with identical period to any other, although between 70 and 100Hz in even a fast sweep, pitch change is in the order of only a few Hz/Cycle - but this I think is probably down to appalling lack of sensitivity in the far field.

I will compile my results (for whatever they're worth) and post them here - But I am now 99% sure that any further energy spent examining this toy is wasted energy - there's nothing technically illuminating about it, even the mistakes are so gross that its not like one can learn anything from them! - All one can do is shake ones head and gasp with incredulity!

Fred.

Damn post just vanished!

Following taken from Dewsters MP3 : http://www.mediafire.com/listen/yjydd6exab7b1dg/Theremini_20114-08-06.mp3

 Cannot delete this.. Sorry! :-(

This is probably all im going to do / say on this thread.. its a bit too addictive, but long past the point where it gives any high!

Fred

I linked the above because its the only piece of "music" being "played" on the theremini that I have been able to find.

Interesting to note that one might be fooled into thinking real "playing" is occurring at first (as in, the players are actually playing what they intend to play - not talking about bass here - I guess they intend to play that) but this misconception is dispelled IMO when a dog "plays" the toy almost as "well" as the human player. (how long before we see cats "playing" "tunes" on a theremini, I wonder ;-)

I am not knocking the "fun factor" here - this toy would be great for a playgroup, primary or junior school..

So its just, as stated, a "silly" tune..

Why, with a "professional" 'thing' hasn't anyone yet played anything "worthy" ? - Why, rather than putting the effort into a "silly" tune, not invest this effort in something that backs up the word "professional"? I have not found even ONE piece ANYWHERE on the web that shows the theremini as something other than a toy, let alone worthy of being called "professional"!

So here is a challenge to Moog Inc (and / or anyone who thinks my comments on the theremini are wrong  false or unjustifiably or unjustly malicious.. People like Touchless who are so concerned about Moog Inc are welcome to commission a thereminist to take on this challenge) .. Perhaps, as Moog Inc advises people to study Clara's performances as a means to learning to play the theremini, they should do something like "The Swan" or "Hebrew Melody" on it.

Produce a worthy piece of music - one with the theremini performing a lead role as a theremin on a reasonably complex piece of music (the theremini can also be used with pitch correction or whatever for backing if you want, but I want to see it primarily behaving like the professional  theremin its claimed to be!) with some fast pitch changes - do this with video running and without post-processing, and if its even reasonably ok I will retract / apologize / delete any derogatory comments I have posted on this thread which are quashed by such a demo!

Fred.

It probably is possible to play the theremini:

... In my next gig, I'll start playing with my head rather than my hands.

Amey,

You could probably manage to play a better tune on the EW with your head, than you could manage on a theremini with your hands!

;-)

So here is a challenge to Moog Inc (and / or anyone who thinks my comments on the theremini are wrong  false or unjustifiably or unjustly malicious.. People like Touchless who are so concerned about Moog Inc are welcome to commission a thereminist to take on this challenge) .. Fred

Why am I being dragged back into this? I think the instrument serves its purpose, maybe better called a “Proximiti” controller. I enjoy when someone produces a product for others to explore rather than those that dissect and trash everyone that comes to market before them. In my few years at TW I have seen this done to at least five theremin designers who have never returned here for discussion. With the World on Fire today, which develops from different opinions too “stupid” to back down, I wish it would stop at TW, the trashing and breaking of everyone else’s stuff.

T

<OT>

TW is about theremins, just like  automobile enthusiasts have their sites and forums.

If a new car was developed by say Saab that cost the same as a VW Golf, had loads of accessories the Golf didn't have, but drove like a Robin Reliant and couldn't even be relied on to do basic journeys like taking your kids to school, the folks in an auto forum - even those who love what Saab had produced before, would TRASH this new vehicle... In fact it is likely that those most admiring of what Saab had done in the past would be most critical if Saab produced rubbish.

Same is true for almost any company who drops their standards and produce rubbish after having produced quality - its those who most respected the former products who are likeliest to make the most noise.

I didnt think my "(and / or anyone who thinks my comments on the theremini are wrong  false or unjustifiably or unjustly malicious.. People like Touchless who are so concerned about Moog Inc are welcome to commission a thereminist to take on this challenge) " was offensive or "dragging" anyone into anything. I offered a simple way for those who feel that what I have said was wrong, to show me and the theremin world that I was wrong - and said I would "rectify" my posts and apologize if I was shown to be wrong.

I accept that there is a possibility that I have been wrong, and think it highly likely that I have been wrong on at least some matters about the theremini - And If I see that I have been wrong, I will state this.

On a technical level, the ONLY way that a theremin developer can learn is by having their product dissected by other competent engineers AND musicians..Developers might leave if they arrogantly hold onto ideas which are obviously wrong to any competent EE.  Problems of this kind often come when such a developer is actually selling product and publishing false data on it -  As an EE on TW I will not pretend misleading or false data is the truth! I will give my opinions for them and others to see - The developer has the options of 1.) Fixing the problem 2.) Changing their published data  3.) presenting argument / evidence that my opinion is wrong 4.) Ignoring me.

... If they choose to leave TW instead, that is their choice.

The only action they can take that annoys me is when they make snidely insinuations or personal attacks on me - and alas, when people are in the "wrong" and dont want to admit this, that is what they sometimes do.. Its just human nature - something I am not immune to either! - Some people though are unable ever to admit they are wrong or make an apology, and these people are often the worst offenders when it comes to turning things "personal" - Some such people even devote their personal web pages to personal (disguised) smear campaigns or use their profiles to target their "enemy".

And when people do this, when they troll and target me without any cause (as in, I have never had any personal disagreement or unpleasant exchange with them, or said anything nasty to them), then sometimes I take the bait and kick back.

I am not "competing" with anyone - If I was competing, if I was trying to 'trash' other developers in order to clear the market so I could grab it, I wouldn't be publishing my ideas freely for others to use. I am not going anywhere in this "industry" - my time (unless some financial miracle happened) has long passed - and even if I did get money, I think there are far saner ways to use this than producing theremins!

I cannot count 5 "theremin developers" who have left TW since 2011 - Two who have left (since I joined TW in 2007 - 7 years ago) are friends of mine who I have contact with - as in, they certainly didn't leave because of me.

But its kind of bogus to bring this matter up anyway - Moog is not a "theremin developer" and is not a "TW member" - It is the most well established analogue synthesizer and theremin producing company on planet Earth!...

If some new developer had produced the theremini, the whole approach to them (certainly from me) would be supportive and sympathetic (but no less honest).. The mistakes made on the theremini are the same kind of mistakes I made on my Epsilon - It too had a digital engine for the capacitive sensor data capture, it too had low voltage simple oscillators and low antenna voltage - But I was a bog-headed newbee back then, an EE who looked at the theremin and thought "I can make it simpler and better by using a PSoC"  _ I never stopped to ask "Why did Bob go to all that trouble with his oscillator design?" (- to be honest, I hadnt even examined Bobs theremin designs fully - I could draw a Mini-Moog circuit from memory, but had paid scant attention to theremins.)

People at Moog Inc should know the answers to these questions - They have all of Bobs designs and notes to refer to. They have no excuse, and I have no reason for sympathy! 

I am not "trashing and breaking of everyone else’s stuff" - Exposing that something is broken isn't breaking it! Identifying trash as trash isn't trashing it!

And exposing lies targeted to the theremin community - lies which for a while even mislead one of the most experienced and skilled thereminists alive - That is something I will not stop doing !

Fred.