the LEVNET zone.. Part 1 ;-))

[i]"..condemn the use of Antares autotune and similar technologies for stripping away some essential quality in theremin playing. (And quite rightly so! ..."[/i]

Antares autotune, to me, demonstrates the unique nature of the Theremin with regard to intonation.. There was (is) a good Thereminist [i](this is not just my opinion, it was the opinion expressed on Levnet recently by an advocate of "raising the bar")[/i] who recently posted performances on Utube - His performances were not shit, (probably well above average in terms of intonation) but he chose to polish them with Auto-tune.

The result was perfectly in tune, and perfectly dead!

I do believe there is something about the Theremin which is lost when intonation is perfect.. whether due to electronic processing, OR due to PERFECT playing.

Regarding performances:

I think there are 2 sides to this 'coin' .. Yes, there is a lot of absolute rubbish being posted on the web - but this does not only apply to Theremin performances... The main difference, I think, is that the Theremin community probably makes more noise about the abysmal 'quality' of what people are producing than, for example, recorder playing enthusiasts do about the abysmal quality of recorder 'performances' on the web.

This has a knock-on effect.. The people who produce crap Theremin performances are not aware they are producing crap, even if this is brought to their attention - to THEM, what they do is great.. They will not change their ways - and why should they?

BUT - There are those who may well be good enough to be enjoyed by many others, who, because they are focussing on almost unobtainable "perfection" and because of fearing to fall foul of the Theremin critics, do not post anything and hide themselves away practicing playing scales.. (!?)

[i]"I have worked my whole life as a professional musician. Someone here recently challenged me as to why I didn't have any youtube videos posted. My reply was that I do not have enough mastery (in my opinion) to post something of quality. This despite the fact that my playing is much better than most of what I have seen on youtube." - Eitherspiel [/i]

EDIT> I feel the above is sad (although I agree that a person has absolute right to withold publication of their art for whatever reason)..

WE (those who enjoy GOOD Theremin performance, and do not go into Anaphylactic shock when we hear a bum note) are deprived when those who can play well dont publish, whatever their reasons.

And it is, in my opinion, often an irrational obsession with "perfection" which is the major cause of our deprivation, and the REASON why most Theremin performances seen on the web are crap.

Just an idea..

It would be interesting to feed the BEST Theremin recording (a piece played with impecable intonation, AND having the nuances which make the Theremin so enjoyable) into Auto-tune..

Theoretically (I think) what came out should be [i]almost[/i] exactly what goes in.. But I would be extremely surprised if what came out WAS as interesting / enjoyable as what goes in..

I Think one would lose the "something" which makes the Theremin so enjoyable - I think one would lose the (un-noticed) "errors".

I do not own an auto-tune, and I do not believe I am skilled enough to select the 'right' performance to test this idea on.. But I think this test (although it could not be regarded as conclusive - there would still be many variables which could be argued over) would go a long way to to clarify the importance of intonation for the Theremin.

I’m finding this a depressing thread. My initial instinct was to steer clear of it, but now, with trepidation, I offer my thoughts.

Yes, I agree with Coalport’s vox/voice comparison; I’ve always felt that playing the theremin was like singing with your hands. My aim, when playing the theremin, is to “sing” the right notes as consistently as possible – however, I’m fully aware of my frequent failings, know good playing will require years of dedication and practice, and realise I may never reach the standard of those whose playing I admire.

I agree with Fred’s observation that those who await perfection before sharing their playing with others, not only deprive appreciative listeners of enjoyment, but lose out on helpful advice or positive feedback that may encourage them greatly. However, I support the right of those who prefer to keep their playing private to do so … but I also support the rights of those who wish to share their playing whatever their reasons or level of skill. I find the inference that most are tone-deaf deluded no-hopers fit for nothing but ridicule by more experienced players upsetting. I suspect that the best of players struggled with intonation in their first few months.

For the present I’m pretty much house-bound. I think it unlikely I’ll ever play publicly, even if I get good enough; (I’m fairly sure I wouldn’t have the confidence). Over the 18 months I’ve been learning, I’ve posted a few videos at Youtube – NOT because I’m seeking an audience or wanting to make a name for myself (the last thing I’d want) … but because this is the ONLY way I can get ANY feedback to help me progress.

Learning this unique instrument is difficult enough, but when tuition is largely unavailable, and with little or no ready access to live theremin performances, it’s almost impossible. A learner needs feedback – and to get feedback their playing must be both seen and heard. To be honest, I’d MUCH prefer to be taught by a professional tutor for a few years then debut with a polished/flawless performance … but that isn’t possible. So, as painfully embarrassing as it has been, (and still is), I share what I’m doing (complete with errors of intonation, style, technique etc), appreciating any thoughtful feedback and guidance more experienced players are generous enough to occasionally offer.

I hope that my gradual learning curve might encourage others to learn themselves, and to not feel overly inhibited by their initial lack of skill; I know watching the gradual improvement of others is something that helped me, because I saw that improvement WAS possible. Watching expert performances may give one something to aspire to … but, to be honest, I find less skilled performances a valuable learning aid too. While we’re advised to observe and emulate the techniques of players we admire – I find it useful to analyse what less skilful players are doing that makes their playing less good.

As I’ve appreciated ANY encouragement, I like to encourage others when I observe some progress, even if they’re obviously struggling with intonation. I’m sorry … but I really don’t like seeing links to videos here, if the only object is ridicule, no matter how much someone may think it is justified. These people have feelings.

Regarding intonation issues by those who perform in public:
I've never been fortunate enough to hear a live theremin performance. If I did, as much as I’d love to hear flawless playing, I suspect that, because I understand the playing difficulties peculiar to the theremin, my expectations may be slightly less, and I’d appreciate the generosity and courage of those sharing their playing … and make allowances for nerves. However, I would expect them to have prepared and practiced to the very best of their ability beforehand.

Finanlly ...
What is Antares autotune? I've never heard of it. From the sound of it I highly doubt I'd ever want to use it. I presently even

[i]"I have worked my whole life as a professional musician. Someone here recently challenged me as to why I didn't have any youtube videos posted. My reply was that I do not have enough mastery (in my opinion) to post something of quality. This despite the fact that my playing is much better than most of what I have seen on youtube." - Eitherspiel

The above, in my opinion, is the sad result of this obsession with "perfection" .. WE (those who enjoy GOOD Theremin performance, and do not go into Anaphylactic shock when we hear a bum note) are deprived because those who can play well dont have the guts to put their wares on show..[/i]

Just to be clear - "obsession with perfection" is generally the difference between a pro musician and an amateur. Working hard to have a good, clear intonation is a fundamental of good musicianship, no matter how you want to rationalize the merits of bad playing. When I hear a recording of Lydia Kavina, Pamelia Kurstin, Peter Pringle - I do not hear out of tune playing. I hear instead the hallmarks of accomplished musicians. There is nothing "sad" about striving for good intonation - being "in control" of the instrument is the point of practising - listen to a Rockmore recording, it is painfully obvious that she is in complete control of the instrument and that even the slightest inflection is intentional.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you - playing out of tune is not what makes a performance interesting. Phrasing, articulation, and interpretation is what makes a performace great, not playing out of tune.

Sorry to "deprive" you, but I do not wish to put out of tune performance on the internet. I am sure, however, that you can find hundreds of out of tune performances all over the internet to keep you satisfied. As for me, I prefer to listen to the players who are "sadly obsessed" with playing well.

Fred wrote:

.... Yes, there is a lot of absolute rubbish being posted on the web - but this does not only apply to Theremin performances... Theremin community probably makes more noise about the abysmal 'quality' of what people are producing than, for example, recorder playing enthusiasts do about the abysmal quality of recorder 'performances' on the web.

**************************

Fred, out of curiosity I just surfed the available recorder videos on YT and I found them to be, on the whole, rather good. Some of them were excellent. Not being a member of the recorder community I have no way of knowing whether its members object to the "abysmal quality of recorder performances on the web", however, it could be that the ratio of bad performances to good performances is higher with the theremin than it is with the recorder.

My very casual perusal of the available vids would indicate that this is so.

One thing that struck me is that the highest view counts for the recorder are in the hundreds, whereas the highest counts for the theremin are in the millions.

It would seem that thereminists have more to object to than players of the recorder.

As for this whole business about "perfection" on the theremin. We are all off key all the time (as are singers). Perfection on the theremin is an impossibility so, as it is written over the entrance to hell, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here".

It is not a question of whether you are off key or not. YOU ARE. It is a matter of degree, and a matter of the level of pitch tolerance of your listener. (This is also true of classical singing)

Here is a video of American mezzo soprano Jessye Norman singing DIDO'S LAMENT from Henry Purcell's DIDO AND AENEAS. As some of the commenters mentioned, she is flat throughout. Personally, although I have loved Miss N.'s voice in the past, I can't listen to this. Still, there are many people for whom this performance is unsurpassed.

'Twas ever thus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnzXbx97_UI

Just for the record..

I have looked over my postings, and the other postings here, and not seen the word "sad" or "sadly obsessed"..

I wish to make it clear that I do not see the persuit of perfection as "sad" - quite the contrary.. likewise I do not see "out of tune" performances as "sad".. The people who post these, have confidence and enthusiasm and are enjoying themselves.

I have also found that the happiest people on this planet are those who are not hung up with the "what will people think of me" millstone - the happiest people are those who believe in themselves and dont give a shit what others think! - sure - they may be delusional - but they are happy, entertaining (for whatever reason) and generally a joy to be with.

Conversely, I have found that the most unhappy people are those who are so worried about what others think of them, or what they do, or how what they may do might affect their 'status', that they never expose themselves - They live their lives in a limbo of resentment and fear - critisizing others who dare to "make a fool of themselves" and hiding their secretly honed abilities and talents from the world, for fear that, if exposed, "the world" will critisise them and remove their only source of pride in themselves.

That is sad.

[i]"However, I support the right of those who prefer to keep their playing private to do so" - Thereminstrel [/i]

So do I .. It could not be otherwise (unless you have a contract which forces you to produce when you are not ready to).. BUT I do think people should be encouraged to expose themselves, not discouraged!

I am extremely grateful to those who encouraged me to make my first performance (NOT Theremin!) at a small informal festival 15 years ago.. there were less than 50 people, all friendly, many musicians, and the event changed my life completely and dredged me out of an appalling depressive state. This led to later collaboration with other musicians (hey.. here I am saying "other musicians" as if I was a musician.. LOL) and eventually (recently) I got to the stage where I dared to put my music 'on show' ( Myspace (http://www.myspace.com/therasynth) and youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZdLfGkzWpA&feature=channel)) .. but even now, I still panic when I paste a link to what I have done.. And I envy and admire those who are really free enough to not give a shit.

[i]BUT I do think people should be encouraged to expose themselves, not discouraged![/i]

Yes, sure, but only after they obtained a grade from the academy of music or something equivalent... ;-)

Thereminstrel,

Antares Autotune is the pop star's friend. Why waste expensive studio time with take after take trying to hit that difficult note when the engineer can give a slightly pitchy recording a little tweak with autotune and - bingo - a perfect rendition.

Mostly its use is invisible and nobody mentions that it was used on a recording. So it is hard to give an example.

It is also possible to turn the knobs to max and make it a visible effect. Examples of this include Cher's song Believe, and anything by the rapper T-Pain.

Here is an example of the visible use of autotune to comic effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBb4cjjj1gI

And here is thereminist John Armstrong making ultra-cool use of it on a theremin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-33ebtbGH4

Etherspiel wrote: "When I hear a recording of Lydia Kavina, Pamelia Kurstin, Peter Pringle - I do not hear out of tune playing. I hear instead the hallmarks of accomplished musicians."

In the DVD accompanying the Etherwave Pro, Lydia Kavina is in places very clearly out of tune. Pamelia Kurstin can be heard to be very very out of tune in several classical pieces on at least one radio broadcast available online. If Peter isn't ever heard to be out of tune--he can confirm or disconfirm this--I suspect it's because he very carefully monitors what is made public and what isn't, as he publicly advises everyone to do.


I think it is a fact plainly manifest to anyone who takes a clear look at the paucity of competent performers of the theremin throughout its ninety or so years of existence and the inconsistency of almost all performers of the theremin at any level, that the instrument itself is fundamentally unlike classic orchestral instruments. The problem of intonation, which is, on other instruments, mainly a beginner's problem, is, on the theremin, a FUNDAMENTAL problem, even for "professionals."

I would be very interested to hear a recording of anybody in the world playing, say, The Swan, three times in a row without wrong notes. I can easily do that on the flute, maybe even with voice, and I'm no pro at either. I'm fully ready to accept evidence to the contratry and to change my mind, but, as of now, I'll bet that no one--and I mean NO ONE--can do it.

oops--I meant the DVD that accompanies the Etherwave STANDARD, of course.