t-Vox Tour under atack

Posted: 8/24/2014 8:01:16 AM
ILYA

From: Theremin Motherland

Joined: 11/13/2005

Thank Fred for interesting link http://www.mb-labo.com/Theremin/t-Vox.htm ("first version")

Browsing that site, I found yet another t-Vox related page
http://theremin.mb-labo.com/seisaku/tVOX-2/tVox_syuuri-1.htm ("second version") which concerns the restore functionality. Some photos I have uploaded on TW (to have on hand in case of www.mb-labo.com crash).

General view (with new pitch oscillators and new power supply):



Original pitch oscillators:



Original coils:



Author's plans about repair:


Prototyping of new oscillators (using original coils):



Output:



Substitution:

Posted: 8/24/2014 8:06:28 AM
ILYA

From: Theremin Motherland

Joined: 11/13/2005

Analysis.

1. It was unexpected for me that there are two widely differing versions of t-Vox schematics (but not conceptions). There is no "shape" button in  the first.

2. Its too difficult to reconstruct the pitch topology of the 1-st version (there are no photos of PCB back side). Author says that transistors are  4-pin, dual gate FET, Russian. Regarding "russian" I, maybe, agree, but that quadrupedal creature could be the single gate FET with additional leg  for "body" (metal cap).

3. Reconstructing of 2-nd version is much easier (even without backside photo). There ae two 3-pin transistors in each osc. All three legs are connected in pairs. Just one topology corresponds such connection -- the lambda diode circuit   (you can start with this )

So the oscillator circuit may look like this:

4. All transistors are glued in pairs for correlated thermo drift. Also there is no fuckqualizing coil so the oscillators are completely identical. That is the best case for pitch stability.

5. There are no ESD protection circuits. Just the antenna decoupling capacitor 0.1u 160V (strange that this is a russian component, and only).

6. Empty pads are provided for buffers (emitter followers). Maybe George Pavlov planned another version, with decoupled oscillators?

7. Katsumi Nishikawa, author of the web page, reports about inductances 70uH and 60mH.
This corresponds to the transformation ratio 1:30, so the voltage on antenna is about 30 * 3V(typical power supply for lambda diode) = 90V.

Posted: 8/24/2014 12:07:47 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

WOW!

Many thanks, Ilya! - That IMO is truly great work!

I will study these later, but wanted to be the first to congratulate you on this brilliant disclosure!

Fred.

Posted: 8/24/2014 12:30:41 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

Thanks loads ILYA!

Why all the mystery and secrecy surrounding the TVOX?  Is there some kind of unofficial gag order associated with its design?

Posted: 8/24/2014 8:04:35 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Every thing said below is My Opinion Only!

"Why all the mystery and secrecy surrounding the TVOX?  Is there some kind of unofficial gag order associated with its design?" - Dewster

Yeah ! - There's an "unofficial gag order" in the whole "theremin developers club" - I was quite severely chastised when I started to be included in this "club" for "revealing too much".. And am now largely 'exiled' from it.

I understand it! - Developers spend a lot of time and effort, and the returns are miniscule - the last thing they want is for the masses to see behind the veil.. And I understand this! - Someone with only a paltry understanding of electronics (and even some experienced engineers) looking at a "simple" oscillator wont see the huge effort expended in getting the design right - The first (and sometimes sustained) impression is that its much ado about nothing.

The basic theremin is one of the simplest designs for any electronic musical instrument - And there is (often)  little (or nothing) in a schematic to show the difference between a great theremin and a crap one to those who casually look at them. (and often its impossible to be sure until one actually tests the circuits).

So one way to avoid awkward questions and to avoid having to give extensive explanations for ones schematic and topology and choice of components (and to give these to people who perhaps understand 10% of what you are talking about, and who think the 90% they dont understand is BS) is simply to keep it all under wraps - only to be shared within the "club" if at all.

Keeping things mysterious gives an excuse for charging higher prices - And (mostly) these higher prices are justified because of the effort expended in getting things right, and the fact that the only way to get any return from this effort in this tiny market is by charging "high".

If we had the full Tvox schematic, it would appear extremely simple! Too simple for the price these instruments command - But the key word here is "appear" - Because George Pavlov, in the time he spent developing the Tvox, could probably have earned far more from his employment than he ever got back from sales of the Tvox.. He knows, too well, the nature of the theremin community and that there is no money to be made - When I spoke with him in 2010 he made the situation starkly clear to me - even having developed a revered theremin, and having put this into production and being better placed both to produce and market the instruments than most, he had no interest in doing so again,  and saw no financial incentive to do so.. He saw a far higher probability of loss than any financial gain.

IMO, developers who get into theremins often do so because of an irrational passion for the instrument and/or because they start out by seeing a simple design (and dont realize that all they are seeing is the tiny tip of a massive iceberg) and think "I can improve that" or "I can make money out of that".

Those who continued seem to have now split into  groups - a "club" who (for valid reasons) wants to keep their knowledge out of the public domain, and those who want to put all their acquired knowledge and ideas and research into the public domain.

IMO, these groups are fine and have "validity" - The only time, IMO, when its not "fine" is when any group uses dirty tactics on the other, or when any developer tries to prevent or rubbish stuff put into the public domain by others.

Ignorance and mystery only serves the purposes of those who wish to exploit ignorance and mystery. But there is no reason or duty on anyone to disclose what they spend their time researching or developing, and no duty on anyone to educate others.

Then there is also the corporate theremin manufacturer who is the main theremin supplier to the world - there was a time when they shared their designs, and had a win-win from this.

For understandable reason the design of their most revered instrument was never published - doing so could perhaps have affected sales and given ammunition to their "anti-digital" competitors or potential competitors (even though the instrument was not digital, it was mixed signal - but the fact that it used logic gates in its audio path was something that understandably at the time, they didn't want to disclose).

Details of some prior instruments were also hidden because there were reasons why purists (who they wanted to please back then) may have been put off  (as in, VC synth voice not heterodyning) but the habit of non-disclosure stuck, and IMO evolved into deliberate dishonesty.. And the company now seems only interested in dishonestly marketing rubbish.

Fred.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:01:06 AM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"Yeah ! - There's an "unofficial gag order" in the whole "theremin developers club" - I was quite severely chastised when I started to be included in this "club" for "revealing too much".. And am now largely 'exiled' from it."  - FredM

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member"  - Groucho Marx

Like a lot of things, you really own a design when you bring it to market.  Everyone can point to it and acknowledge that it is a real thing and that you did it.  Otherwise it's just a pile of ideas laying there on paper.  But I don't understand why we shouldn't feel free to pick apart and discuss older designs that no longer are, and never again will be, on any market.

I'm so old I remember when Radio Shack put schematics in the users manuals of all their products.

============

I'll simulate it when I get home, but ILYA, is that Lambda diode oscillator self-starting?  It seems Russian Theremin oscillators often use transformers to boost antenna voltage swing?  I used to think that was a good way to go, but the capacitance between windings can be an issue, and asymmetrical capacitance gives similar voltage boost without complex inductors.

Also there is no fuckqualizing coil"  - ILYA

Ha ha!

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:29:08 AM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"I'm so old I remember when Radio Shack put schematics in the users manuals of all their products" - Dewster

LOL ;-) .. Those were the days, my friend! ;-) ... When I worked at Hamrad in Cape Town (The RS / Farnell equivalent there in the early 70's) people wouldn't dream of buying anything technical if they didnt have full schematics available! - and for stuff like communication receivers or hi-fi these were usually in the user manual or an addendum provided free.

"But I don't understand why we shouldn't feel free to pick apart and discuss older designs that no longer are, and never again will be, on any market."

It only makes sense in the context of willfully keeping people ignorant - and I think, sadly, that there are folks who want to do this.. These folks paint those who "expose" these "trade secrets" as some kind of subversives - sort of like spammers or spies or traitors.. We have seen some of that recently, that's for sure!

We are, from every legal and, IMO, moral perspective FULLY entitled to "pick apart" and "expose" whatever the hell we like! Furthermore, IMO, in so doing we are providing an essential service to the community and keeping interest in the technical aspects alive...

But, in so doing, we are dispelling the mystery and mambo-jumbo that some folks thrive on.. And to these people, and these people alone, we are a threat.

Fred.

Oh, just some thoughts on the Tvox.. The antenna transformer may provide marginal ESD protection, but I have heard of Tvox'es being damaged by ESD. As for the fuckqualizing ;-) .. Is the consensus now that it doesnt work? - because as far as I can tell, it does! ok, its far from perfect, and it only really works when optimally tuned - but when crafted rather than mass produced it works! .... It worked for Lev, it worked for Bob, and neither Lev's nor Bob's designs can be made anywhere near as linear without correctly tuned fuckqualizing as they can with it!

And I come back to this question - IF it really doesn't work (either in theory or in practice) why would someone like Lev have adopted (invented?) it ? I do not believe that he would have wasted all that egffort and expense including a honking coil if it hadn't been needed...

But - The Tvox doesn't have fuckqualizing and its lovely! How?  The one thing I couldn't get out of George Pavlov (but im not sure if this was because I didn't understand what he was saying about balancing the oscillators - and at that time I didn't know the Tvox never had fuckqualizing coils) was how he achieved the legendary linearity ...  Is it done bt carefully balancing the interaction between variable and reference oscillators ?

Posted: 8/25/2014 5:35:32 AM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

a) at least my tVox has ESD protection. There are small gas discharge tubes near the antennae connectors on the respective PCBs. But they look as if they have been added later.

b) the tVox has no legendary linearity. It is highly unlinear in the higher register as are all unequalized Theremins. The player can linearize it up to a certain degree by leaning successively more towards the pitch antenna as he plays in the higher octaves to stretch the field. What George was talking about is a small trim potentiometer, hidden under the pitch knob which allows to adjust the degree of coupling between the fixed and the variable oscillator. With this, one may make somewhat shrink the tone spacing in the lower register in a way that it corresponds more or less to the one in the middle register. It naturally has an impact on the lowest playable frequency, too, and on the timbre. That's why I choose to turn it for almost maximum decoupling and adapting the tone spacing rather by leaning dynamically back, thus continuing the "body supported" linearizing which one has to do in the high register. It is demanding in the first time, but it feels natural once you are used to it. The only disadvantage is that you feel strange when you have to play occasionally a more linear theremin like the EPro which rather asks for a constant distance between the player's body and the pitch antenna.

Posted: 8/25/2014 12:21:31 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

" the tVox has no legendary linearity. It is highly unlinear in the higher register as are all unequalized Theremins." - Thierry

To me, on the few times I have played it, it was more playable than any other theremin I have been close to.. Perhaps its because I tend to play in the mid and lower registers that I never noticed higher register non-linearity (I have only played Lydia's Tvox perhaps 5 times at most).

Is the Tvox more linear in the low / mid registers than most other theremins?

Fred.

 

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:16:30 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"b) the tVox has no legendary linearity. It is highly unlinear in the higher register as are all unequalized Theremins."  - Thierry

And another one, to some degree, bites the dust.

It's the endless thicket of mysterious circuitry with associated (reported / subjective) holy grail performance that makes Theremin research so needlessly difficult (and, conveniently for sellers, sustains unreasonably high prices in the used market - and, conveniently for buyers, sustains unreasonably high levels of ownership status).  I've reached the point where I almost don't believe anything without strong corroboration, but before I hit that point it felt like I was living in a pinball machine.  The less determined / less technical are lambs just asking for it.

Perhaps it's creeping toxic subjectivism bleeding over from the completely contaminated audiophile market, where the technical side is disconnected from, or even completely at odds with, reported performance.  What we need is to get more people with zero tolerance for BS (Douglas Self comes to mind) interested in Theremins.

You must be logged in to post a reply. Please log in or register for a new account.