Problem with Theremax.. Pt 2

Posted: 7/9/2009 3:08:19 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

From Problem with Theremax (http://www.thereminworld.com/forum.asp?cmd=p&T=4053&F=3&p=3)

[i]"I'm sorry this thread has come to an end."

"Is the max 23 posts?"

"Yeah, the maximum number of posts in a thread is 23 + VAT = 26 posts." - Thierry [/i]


[b]There is a limit of 26 posts per thread.. but no limit on how many continuations one has! :)[/b]

No - I have nothing to add.. Just providing this 'hook'.. This thread MUST continue, as we are waiting for Ethan to do the tests and report back! [b];-)[/b]
Posted: 7/9/2009 4:31:28 PM
EthantheBassist

From: Albany, OR

Joined: 6/18/2009

The Good News: Okay, so I fixed it! Its still in "controller mode" too! (i guess i'm not a purist, but "controller mode" is just more intuitive for me!)

The Bad News: I have no idea what I did! I was just messing with L3 and I did something, tried it, and the ghost tone vanished! I'm afraid that if I try to reverse engineer what I did, I will mess it up again and be forever haunted by this "ghost tone!"

But! I will try to reverse engineer it and post my results for the world to see! Here's what I'll do: I'm playing at church Sunday (bass) and I might be playing theremin a little. So I will reverse engineer AFTER Sunday! I don't want to mess it up before.

Thanks for everyone's help! I'll keep you all posted!
Posted: 7/9/2009 6:41:58 PM
teslatheremin

From: Toledo, Ohio United States of America

Joined: 2/22/2006

Well,
I guess, the less advice is more!
I would guess that EthantheBassist just tried to re-tune the volume section of his ThereMax.
Good Luck!
teslatheremin
Posted: 7/9/2009 7:48:54 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

[b]YOU FIXED IT ?! Just messin 'bout with the damn L and YOU FIXED IT ? -

Oooohhh No! - That just aint good enough!
Trouble is, are you sure you can break it again in EXACTLY the same way? Huh ?? NO! You cannot be sure, can you!

So thats it.. We will never know if there is life after death..

We will never know if some departed Thereminists ghost was attempting communication with you..

YOU BLEW IT!! [/b]

LOL - ;-) ... Seriously though.. Unless you know that whatever you did is a permanent fix, you will always be haunted by the fact that the ghost could re-appear.

And if you know what fixed it - tell us!
Posted: 7/10/2009 12:21:12 AM
Thomas Grillo

From: Jackson Mississippi

Joined: 8/13/2006

FredM, I have been there, and done the same exact thing with my Theremax. Fixed it, but failed to take notes. Just when I thought it was safe to make one more adjustment, the bloody thing started picking up an air traffic control frequency, or something. Hasn't been right since.
Posted: 7/10/2009 12:37:03 AM
EthantheBassist

From: Albany, OR

Joined: 6/18/2009

Ha ha! Well I will do my BEST to break it again so that I can re-fix it and take note of what I did! But again, after Sunday! :)
Posted: 7/10/2009 3:01:37 PM
Ardor

From: Florida

Joined: 11/24/2006

I did email PAIA the same day I posted here. I just got a reply from Scott. I've read through it and I'm going to have to print it out so that I can study it a little easier. I know how to solder and follow directions but other then that I know just enough about electronics to get me in trouble :-)

I'm posting Scott's email here because there's information in it he says isn't in the guide. maybe it'll help the next guy :-)

I'll print it out and do the tests he suggests then get back to you all and let you know how it goes.

If dressing the wiring and/or trying the alternative tuning method doesn't help, there are checks and tests that can be made and these are listed further into the guide.

Also, I've since prepared this extra information which you might find useful/insightful, but have yet to incorporate into the guide.

The absence of CV outputs (pitch cv, volume cv, and velocity cv) and the timbre control results don't necessarily point to a malfunctioning 339 or 3302 Quad Comparator IC at the IC1 designation. It is rare that this part fails or is associated with trouble. It is relatively simple in terms of ICs (ten or twelve silicon transistors or so per section. If there is trouble related to it, it is usually something like a missing ground, Vr, or V+ circuit. A jumper wire next to the marking IC1 and alongside
capacitor C40 carries the 8.2 V+ power supply voltage over to the pin 3 of the IC. The 4.1v Vr voltage which is used to bias input pins on the part is linked by a short jumper wire next to wiring point L.

The cv outputs are dependent upon the tuning of the pitch and volume sections and then when the sections are tuned to near null (audio range heterodynes) then the Pitch CV, Volume CV and Velocity CV controls must be advanced to send an amount of these voltages to the respective cv output connectors: Velocity CV is also dependent upon a significant and quickly changing Volume CV. When the pitch oscillator pair is tuned so you can hear pitch that varies as the hand moves to or from the antenna, the pitch cv should be varying over about a 0-4v dc range. The volume oscillator pair tuned to a audio/near-audio range should result in the volume cv in a similar 0-4v dc range. When the volume control is fully advanced and the Velocity CV control is advanced, the velocity cv output should vary in a similar 0-4v dc range according to the rate the volume cv changes--the faster the volume cv changes, the more the velocity cv produced. A significant velocity cv should cause a gate-trigger/s-trigger (and light this LED indicator for the triggering).

A multimeter set to measure these 0-4v range dc voltages can be connected or touched to the ground and clockwise terminals (terminal 3 as shown on figs. 3 and 4) of the cv amount controls, R82 (pitch cv amount), R83 (volume cv amount), and R84 (velocity cv amount).

As L2 is adjusted to cause the frequency of the oscillator two circuit to pass through the frequency at which the oscillator one circuit is operating, the pitch cv will increase and fall back to zero each side of null (equal frequencies for the pair of oscillators). Adjusting L3 through its range should produce similar results for the volume cv.

The audio/near-audio range of heterodyne signals from the pairs going into f-v (frequency to voltage) circuit sections must be sufficient strength to cause the IC1:A and IC1:B comparator stages to pulse or switch the 8.2 volts connected to their output pins (via R51 and R52). Each input pin of these comparators is held at 4.1v
but one of each of them has the heterodyne signal going into it.

The fluctuations of these signals should result in the input being more, or less, that the other input and the output switching/pulsing/toggling at the frequency of the het. signal.

It is possible to test the comparator operation by forcing a higher or lower voltage on the signal sensing pin while measure the
Posted: 7/11/2009 5:42:24 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Hey, Ardor.. You trying to compete with me for long postings? LOL! :-)

Sure is a meaty reply..


[i]"The cv outputs are dependent upon the tuning of the pitch and volume sections and then when the sections are tuned to near null (audio range heterodynes)" "The volume oscillator pair tuned to a audio/near-audio range should result in the volume cv in a similar 0-4v dc range. When the volume control is fully advanced" [/i]

I find this strange.. There is no reason I can see why the tuning for the volume voltage should be "audio/near-audio range".. This looks like asking for trouble.. One can get a CV just as easily on this type of circuit if one makes the volume "null" at a frequency way above audio (I use 44kHz).. This way one moves any unwanted modulation harmonics up where they are easily filtered with a simple RC.

[i]"Weak heterodyne signals that aren't sufficient to make the f-v circuit pulsing can result from many possible oscillator circuit troubles but simple ones to check for first include the pair not being tuned about null.."[/i]

Again, all these potential problems are eliminated if one shifts away from the idea that the volume heterodyning needs to produce audio .. It DOESNT! - This is an example of lateral thinking.. One has a tried and tested method of getting audio by beating the pitch and pitch reference oscillators together, complete with the needed nulling to produce the correct audio frequencies out - and one takes this idea ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED and applies it to producing a CV for volume control .. copying all the features which make this problamatic for volume control - for example the fact that one can cross the null point, and that as the beat frequency gets lower, the update latency and accuracy reduces... When all one needs to do is ensure that the tuning is set so that output frequencies produced NEVER get into the audio range, and tailor the following circuits so that a CV is produced from this higher varying frequency.

Also - One does not need to use a balanced modulator for volume.. This produces unwanted "Weak heterodyne signals" - One needs a balanced modulator for the audio waveform production - but for the volume one wants a nice square wave produced by squaring the oscillator signals and mixing these digitally using an XOR or (far better) a D-Latch.. The D-Latch results in a clean difference frequency output with no unwanted harmonics which need to be filtered out.

Ok.. I have just re-designed the volume section of the Theremax.. This is the only bit I would re-design.. Most of what is being done in this unit is well designed.
Posted: 7/13/2009 8:25:23 PM
Ardor

From: Florida

Joined: 11/24/2006

Sorry about the length of my last post. I was just trying to pass along the info...

There was also a PDF in Scott's email that I didn't notice at first. It explained the alternate tuning as well as providing a whole lot of information that was just way over my head...

I tried the alternate tuning and the DC level tests and every thing seems fine but still no action from the volume antenna.

There was test for resistance over the legs of the coils but it wasn't making sence to me and I was getting really frustrated so I decided to give it a rest for today.

Sigh...
Posted: 7/14/2009 2:53:57 AM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

[i]There was test for resistance over the legs of the coils but it wasn't making sence to me and I was getting really frustrated so I decided to give it a rest for today.[/i]

This test makes sense! I've been repairing a PT-03 theremin which is a Theremax clone. The fixed pitch oscillator stopped working from times to times with no obvious cause. DC levels were ok. Finally I discovered that an internal soldering of L1, which connects the coil wire to a pin, was broken and had only sporadic contact.

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