Antenna tuning.

Posted: 12/18/2013 5:27:33 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

IMHO, "instant up" is not forcibly a required feature. Most instruments (Violin, Flute, Trumpet etc.) have to be tuned before each playing and to be retuned after a while (warm-up phase), why should it be different for a theremin? Even the fully transistorized 7th generation Ondes Martenot needs about 3 minutes until the exponential current converters will have stabilized and the audio output will be enabled.

As long as you deal with professional and classically trained musicians as your clients, nobody will complain about a warm-up phase. It might be totally different with amateurs who are only used to cheap, Casio-style single-chip stuff, but you will most probably not waste your creativity for these...

Posted: 12/18/2013 6:54:24 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

My cheap classical guitar stays pretty much in tune from one day to the next.  I pick it up for maybe a minute per day and that helps me retain whatever minimal musical skills I currently possess.  If I had to wait for it to warm up (or boot up) I would have given up guitar long ago.

And actually Casio isn't doing too bad lately in the digital piano product space.  Their keys and sound generation technologies are able to compete with the best of them (though I'm not a fan of the piano voice they use).

Posted: 12/18/2013 10:02:49 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"IMHO, "instant up" is not forcibly a required feature. Most instruments (Violin, Flute, Trumpet etc.) have to be tuned before each playing and to be retuned after a while (warm-up phase), why should it be different for a theremin?" - Thierry

Because it can be.

Given the choice, nobody would choose an instrument which fluctuates with temperature - the fact that acoustic instruments require a warm-up time is not an advantage, its a disadvantage - one which musicians who use these instruments must live with.

If it was impossible for the theremin to be otherwise, musicians would likewise need to tolerate this - its not about being  "forcibly a required feature" - But other electronic musical instruments (even analogue synths with their exponential converters) have managed near instant warm-up and stability.. It is also worth noting that early synths suffered from thermal drift, and this really wasnt tolerated by musicians when design was improved and the instruments didnt drift.

One other matter with acoustic instruments is that whilst they may go out of tune, this is in the order of cents or a few semitones (less than +/- one semitone ?, as in flat when cold, sharp when warm) at worst - With "badly" designed theremins, start-up drift can be far greater than that.

The main reason, I suspect, that theremin drift hasnt been a major issue, is that there is no keyboard or visual reference against which pitch can be verified - and there are many other influences that can alter the pitch - and similarly, drift can be compensated by slight body movement (moving closer or further from the theremin for example - even doing this subconciously )... So in this regard minor drift is probably a lot less important than with other electronic instruments.

How important this issue is, is open to some debate - Is it worth adding to the cost in order to eliminate drift that the player can probably accomodate?

Well - I think in some cases (and with particular topologies) it may be .. In itself, minor, slow pitch drift may not be a problem (provided the player does not need to re-adjust the theremins tuning to keep a playable field) - But, in a precision instrument, there may be knock-on effects, in particular with regard to linearity and/or note spacing - this is certainly the case with some of my designs.

Whatever route a designer chooses, and whatever "weighting" they give to this issue, the choices are complex - particularly when one factors in cost.. For me, however, an instrument which doesnt get stable within 3 minutes is not one I would be happy to put on the market.. It takes about one minute to heat a thermally insulated transistor array to 50C if using two transistors as heaters, and nearly 3 minutes if only using one - shorter time if only heating to 40C which I now do - I dont think the environment will exceed 40C at any time.. The ideal would be to encapsulate the whole board in thermally conductive substance, and leave the thermal sensors to compensate - but thats going a bit OTT.. although if I could find a simple way to do this, its what I would choose.. The only reason I dont is that the better thermal potting compounds set hard, meaning repairs / modifications to a board are impossible - Flexible silicone based compounds are still messy and also damn expensive.

Fred.

Posted: 12/18/2013 10:32:49 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"The solution of this problem exists, and it is very simple (at least using vacuum tubes).
F
or commercial reasons i can't say the solution because I use it on my Pegna Satie Tube Theremins." - Pegna

This kind of BS really annoys me!

What is the point of saying "The solution of this problem exists" and then saying " i can't say the solution " ?

As for "commercial reasons" perhaps this MIGHT apply if there were hoards of tube theremin builders competing for the market - But there arent! .. In fact, if you were really selling tube theremins, you may nearly have the complete monopoly! - And with the size of the market, no sane person will jump in, nick your "solution" and compete with you! -

The market is so small that your priority should be supplying those interested in your theremins and communicating well with potential purchasers - not paranoia about some competitor nicking "your" idea which, according to you, has been in the public domain since the '30s.

Errr.... One question - your "technical problem" which prevents you supplying theremins and prevents you from even being polite enough to contact potential interested customers - it wouldnt have anything to do with "thermal issues" would it ? Perhaps you have a problem with hot air...

"Many people is blocked by theory before doing anything pratically. It's a common problem in DIY electronic."

IMO, a more common problem is that, due to lack of any theoretical understanding, people do some simple DIY project, cannot debug a simple issue to get this item to work, and give up - never to return to electronics. The other common scenario is hobbyists who through luck, do get their project to "work" - but then flounder in a murky theory-less world of garbage circuits they dont understand - spend years despising theory, and limit their potential for want of the discipline required to sit down with the books and gain basic understanding of electronics.

IMO, it is irresponsible to discourage people from learning theory - Any positive future is in the hands of those who understand, not in the hands of those who wallow in and glorify ignorance - One reason, IMO, for the awful state of the world, is the deliberate ignorance being promoted and to which the masses are subjected.

When I look at the abysmal education children and even college / university students recieve today, particularly in the sciences, it fills me with despair - I know one kid who just passed their science exam by reading past exam papers two days before the exam, and memorising the answers - this kid knows nothing - doesnt understand the questions, doesnt understand the answers - but got a great grade! - most of the questions on the paper were IDENTICAL to questions in past papers.

"and I'm very curious to know how you solved the technical problems I was talking about."

The way I solve the thermal drift problems are the "absurd" methods you talk about : " thermal correction, thermalinsulation, more complex oscillators design and so on "

Due to my topology, I tend to go to having "ovened" transistors in an array, and a thermal sensor on the board to compensate inductor / capacitor variation concequential to temperature.

The classic method (as employed, I believe, by Lev) was to use capacitors with +Ve or -Ve coefficients and tack these onto the tank or resonator until thermal drift was reduced to acceptable levels - having established the required coefficients, these capacitors only required minimum trimming on production.

The above is fine if one has a fixed build, its not economic in todays world as time taken to do "select-on-test" is costly - IMO, having a thermistor and a multi-turn trimmer (from which a correction voltage is obtained and used to trim the front-end capacitance) , putting the theremin into a "oven" (I use a modified Peltier refrigerator) , adjusting the trimmer at 15C, 25C, 30C so that the pitch (with a good NPO and tiny +TC capacitor to account for antenna thermal expansion replacing the antenna) stays constant at these temperatures.

Doing the above, and substituting parts until things were right, would take far too long - with a trimmer I can get the setting for the trimmer in 2 thermal sweeps - in fact, I can interrupt at any point and trim the preset if I see the pitch change - it still takes too long (about an hour) but I can be doing other things whilt this process is occurring..

If I ever got to producing dozens of theremins, the process could be automated with a motorised preset adjuster or by replacing the preset with a NV "digital" potentiometer or two.

I accept that using a tube-only theremin, it would be expensive to implement the above - You could do it with a thermistor, couple of opamps and transistors driving a tuning mechanism, but not easily with tubes!

My main reason for a "global" TC adjustment is that there are many factors which affect thermal stability - every component has thermal charactaristics, and in my designs there are a lot of components! - Every potentiometer, capacitor, inductor, semiconductor has some influence if they are in any way related to or influence the tuning..

By having a global compensation, all +Ve and -Ve themperature influences can be counteracted reasonably well without having to calculate the individual contribution of each part - and this also leaves one freer to make changes to the design without introducing drift as an accidental concequence.

Fred.

Posted: 12/21/2013 2:09:04 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

I'm not sure that everybody likes the direction which this discussion thread has taken...

What about purging from page 6 and the last 2 posts of page 5?

Posted: 12/21/2013 2:16:33 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

[EDIT] My sincere apologies to Pegna, there's no excuse for my childish behavior.

I'll endeavor to keep a shorter leash on my inner Triumph.

Posted: 12/21/2013 9:53:28 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"I'm not sure that everybody likes the direction which this discussion thread has taken...What about purging from page 6 and the last 2 posts of page 5?" - Thierry

One side of me thinks thats a sensible suggestion - the other side thinks that person/s who dont like this threads direction are probably the one/s responsible for its direction, and may only learn some decency and humility by being (rightfully IMO) ridiculed here..

In time, this thread will sink under the weight of other discussions.. If I was a moderator I would probably just leave it - if its still continuing in its present form by the new year, then perhaps delete back to the "distortion".

But its up to you, of course - Doesnt really bother me (and probably wont seriously bother anyone else) either way.

Fred.

 

Posted: 12/21/2013 10:02:48 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

I took it upon me to purge this thread somewhat, but trying to leave the tech talk about antenna tuning and thermal stability in place, so that everything makes still sense. IMHO this thread has important technical elements which do not deserve to "sink down". 

I don't care of who let the dog out. This thread went off topic and I did my admin job to bring it back on topic.

My personal comment is here: It might be that the one or the other TW member has an issue with Mattia Pegna, it might also be that Mattia who is not a native English speaker (like me!) was not able to express himself with the needed eloquence. Both things, personal issues and humiliating someone because of his limited vocabulary in a foreign language should not have a place in an open, international, and public forum.

Posted: 12/22/2013 1:13:12 AM
Chobbs

From: Brooklyn,NY

Joined: 12/1/2009

"I don't care of who let the dog out. This thread went off topic and I did my admin job to bring it back on topic."

Good call, though speaking of eloquence and cultural miscommunication... I just gotta clarify- My 'dog' comment was not intended to point fingers or stoke the flames.   More rhetorical, it was (intended to be ) a humorous acknowledgement of our little  visit by triumph veiled in a musical reference which (I realize now) many of you folks outside of the states may have the good fortune of not knowing.

Posted: 12/22/2013 2:29:51 PM
bisem

From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Joined: 1/1/2011

I feel that Thierry is right.  The thread probably should be left to the technical discussion.  Since I am not versed on electronics it is easy to have my attention diverted onto an off subject such as Pegna's business pracitces in this case and I apologize for that. However it is a very valid subject for this site. Is it possible to direct these digressions to another thread in the future so that everyone's concerns can get the attention they deserve? 

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