Goals for a TW Theremin

Hi AIK,

"I'm sure if someone actually started selling non-TW theremins with the TW brand, everyone here would stand by the project. I know I would... I'm no lawyer to take legal measures, but I'd tell everyone which theremin was the real TW theremin."

I am not a lawyer, and my encounters with law are all U.K. based - so may not be applicable..

But one thing I am sure of is this - If one leaves any legal situation 'hanging' you will weaken your case.. If the proclamation "This may be released as the $125 TW theremin" had been ignored, then, 12 months from now, the mere fact that it had not been challenged could give RS the right to produce "TW Theremins" and perhaps even the right to prevent us from calling ours a "TW Theremin" - The longer one leaves a challenge to "ownership" the more difficult and expensive it becomes to re-assert ownership. It is ALWAYS better to take an agressive stance in law, particularly when it comes to something where one has a strong "right" which will become weaker if one delays action.

"I'd tell everyone which theremin was the real TW theremin" - I know you would! And I know that (with one notable exception ;-) probably everyone at TW would.. But why should everyone who makes genuine TW theremins need to go to lengths to prove which theremin (or theremin kit) they are supplying? Yes, I can see that if it was only TW members who would be buying TW theremins, there wouldnt be a problem... But there are many people interested in owning a theremin who have never visited TW..

Imagine a conversation at some pub where musicians hang out .. Zack: "I want to get a theremin, you played one, what should I get?" - "I have a Moog Etherwave, its good" - "Yeah, but its $400 - Anything cheaper thats ok?" - "Jon's got a TW theremin which is great, and only cost $150" .... So Zack goes searching on-line for a TW theremin, finds one at $125, buys it. Next there is a new TW member, Zack - posting about his "TW Theremin" and how it has a horrible 240Hz tone all the time, and is unplayable..

Zack bought his theremin based on a recomendation that the TW Theremin was good - what he got was an illusion. IMO, it is utterly irresponsible to allow this potential confusion to remain a possibility - regardless of how small this possibility is. I am not saying that anyone who puts TW theremin circuits in their products must be forced to comply with the TW Theremin standards, I am saying that everyone who calls their theremin a "TW Theremin" must comply with the standards. These "standards" must include full compliance with the circuits aproved by the TW Theremin development team.

And I notice that Christopher is still here..

So I ask you again, Christopher - Please take the statement below, and change the "Fred Mundell" to YOUR NAME, and post it.

I, Fred Mundell, herebye declare that I will NEVER publish, release, produce or manufacture anything in which I use the Theremin World name, or abreviation TW, or prefix or logo, unless such action is agreed and authorised by Jason on behalf of TW. I furthermore will make every effort to ensure that nothing I say or do could lead people to believe that I have TW endorsement if I have not obtained such endorsement from Theremin World first, and that if I accidentally did anything which was deemed by TW to be misleading, will immediately rectify the situation and remove such material. I accept that "Theremin World" and "TW" are, in effect, one and the same name and that within the context of theremins, "TW" means "Theremin World".

And I call on the TW staff and members to back me up fully with this request, and to boot Christopher out of TW if he will not do the above.

Fred.

My intent with this idea was that we'd create an open-source design that folks could adapt and build on themselves.  I never intended there would be a TW branded theremin, nor would I ever sign off on that.  Such a product without my endorsement would be a trademark violation, in fact.

So I hope we can just all take a chillax break and get back to the business of discussing theremin designs folks :)

Out...

Jason,

Thanks for your confirmation that "Such a product without my endorsement would be a trademark violation" - I only wish this clear statement had been made weeks ago. Simply stating this when I first drew attention to the "This may be re-introduced as the $125 TW Theremin" advert would have prevented a load of effort - Yes, I am really annoyed at having been left in this situation without any damn support from you or Thierry (or any member of TW staff who had any authority).

Personally, I think that unless builders of the TW design are able to advertise their TW compliant product as "TW Theremins" or something similar (with your authorization) there will be many non-technical thereminists who will be deprived of whatever is developed here. I am surprised by your " I never intended there would be a TW branded theremin, nor would I ever sign off on that " - to me, its a situation much like the Arduino - If those making compliant Arduino boards and shields could not use the name Arduino, it would be limited to the handful of technical people capable and interested in building these for themselves.

It is my view that if a mechanism is not available by which the designs we come up with can be realised as product available to non-technical members of the theremin (not just the TW) community, there is far less incentive to commit the time and effort to the project.

Fred.

Ps

It is me who has been completely stupid in this whole matter - I have invested time and effort with the stupid idea that time spent here would achieve something, that there would be some recognition and loyalty - that it was actually time well spent which would be of benefit (in the long run) both to me and to the community.

Well, Im not wasting my time here any more - any future technical output from me will be on the Theremin General / Resources Group at Element 14. I will still visit TW, but not to contribute any new designs or do anything which takes effort. Tired of wasting effort.

I am not a hobbyist, I am an engineer - an engineer who is always thinking about production, and, unlike the hobbyist, have no interest in unrepeatable one-off projects, or things which have a lot of time consuming fiddle-factor.

I think that the primary focus here at TW is on the hobbyist - both the technical hobbyist and the musical hobbyist.

It is me who is out of place.

I will not be bringing any of the above matters up again. I too, am signing out... You can continue the theremin tech discussions without my bothersome engineering input ;-)

Who was it that sang 'you don't know what you've got till it's gone'? Joni Mitchell I think.

Fred, I hope you will keep a look at this forum from time to time-I for one, in even a wee short time appreciate your technical and otherwise input to the site.

Roy

Thanks Roy,

I will still be visiting, and probably contributing in a minor way - But I have a stock of unpublished tested designs which (due to failure of my attempts to get commercial backing for) I am free to publish, and had intended to publish here - for possible use in the TW theremin project.

I now need to re-think my plans. One thing is certain, and that is that there is no benefit for me in publishing my stuff on TW - And I need to look after my interests.. Plan B would be to publish on E-14, but this would mean that anyone could build my designs and I would gain little advantage or benefit of any kind.. So perhaps I will just keep my designs under wraps, find a way to fund production, and continue working on my Theremin Developers Reference manual and try to make some money from publishing that..

Cast your bread upon the water, and after many days some may come back - soggy, mouldy and inedible!

LOL ;-)

Fred.

I should clarify my statement.  I had just dumped a full glass of water on my laptop and wasn't in the best of mental states...  

I never intended for us to "sell" a TW-branded theremin.  That's just too much effort, and I already don't have enough time/resources to really do what I'd like to do for the theremin community... adding more responsibility would push me into a guilt-driven funk.  :)  

I envisioned something like an open source design that was the result of a community effort.  There is certainly room for multiple versions... say a "TW Theremin 001", and a "TW Theremin 002"... etc.  (building up to the 007, which also features a metal-cutting laser and an explosive volume antenna).  If people wanted to contribute, then they're welcome to, as long as they understand that the "final product" is a reference design and that anyone is welcome to take the design and build a product out of it.  We'd make they say something like "derived from the TW Theremin 007" somewhere in the product manual or literature to give credit to the creators.  Next time, if there is one, we need to discuss the terms up front.

I think one of the biggest mistakes I made was expecting that people would come to consensus on a single design. This isn't like software where you can easily fork a design/branch and start a slight variation of the project.  

Fred, I do hope you create a theremin developer's reference manual.  I for one would find it fascinating!  I'm sure we could all learn from it.  I hope you get filthy rich selling it too!  I also hope you'll continue hanging out here and contributing to technical discussions.

Now, back to drying out that laptop...  Good thing I had just saved a bunch of site updates in progress to the cloud!  

" I hope you get filthy rich selling it too! " - Jason

ROFLMAO ;-)

Getting filthy rich writing a technical book on even a popular subject, is an impossibility - I have as much chance of getting rich (or even paying off my debts) from anything related to theremins as I have of being accepted on astronought training for the next mars mission...

My slight hope, however, is that the analogue synthesiser community is large and seems willing to spend large sums of money.. My later (unpublished) designs concentrate on voltage outputting theremin controllers, and voltage controlled heterodyning theremin modules.. This was the product range I was hoping to get backing for, but which I am now free to (ab)use..

Perhaps by having product for both the theremin and analogue synth groups, my book (and products if they materialize) will have a bigger market than the 30 or so theremin engineers on the planet ;-) ... Trouble is that most hobbyists will be out of their depth beyond the first few chapters - do I dumb it down, and give "you dont need to understand this, just build the damn thing from a kit I can sell you" - you know - schematics, layouts, parts lists and details where they can buy it..?

Enough - I am drained.. And talking about a book which exists only as a few chapters and piles of chaotic notes is just going to make me feel even more drained..

Jason, thank you for pointing out that there could be more than one ThereminWorld theremin.

May I suggest that the design of a high quality theremin intended for melodic use is laudable, and very ambitious for a first project by the participating members. Perhaps there could be some merit in achieving a simpler goal first?

My idea is for a capacitive sensing device that provides the same functionality as an expression pedal such as the Roland EV-5. 

The target market would be effects-pedal-using guitarists, keytarists, singers and other musicians who are free to move around whilst performing. An example of use would be a guitarist controlling a flanger by swinging the head of his guitar rhythmically towards and away from the capacitive sensor in the style of Hank Marvin.

Such a device would offer better control than an expression pedal, freedom from the mechanical problems often associated with foot operated treadles and look pretty cool on stage too. It should cost less than $60 to make to undercut the Roland EV-5. 

Gordon,

AFAICS the EV-5 is just a potentiometer (minimum volume) in series with the pedal potentiometer, designed to work into the expression pedal input of instruments - it has no seperate supply, and is entirely passive.

What you are asking for: "The target market would be effects-pedal-using guitarists, keytarists, singers and other musicians who are free to move around whilst performing. An example of use would be a guitarist controlling a flanger by swinging the head of his guitar rhythmically towards and away from the capacitive sensor in the style of Hank Marvin." is not achievable with a pedal of this kind unless the equipment (flanger or whatever) was designed to interface with this pedal..

And the same is / would be true for any capacitive sensor to replace the pedal..

And this brings us right back to the issue of specifications / interfaces etc..

At this time there are two predominant methods of controlling electronic musical equipment - these are MIDI and Voltage Control (1V/octave in the case of pitch).

So, As I see it, to achieve what you are requesting, a capacitive sensor with A CV output (or MIDI output) is required. If one is not bothered much about linearity, and you are only interested in a single control channel (as in, you dont need to wory about interaction with other sensors) the Smirnov sensors are all you need (together with voltage controlled effects).

A Modular TW theremin would also probably provide what you are asking for - The volume control circuitry would contain a capacitance to voltage converter, and a well designed volume module should provide a voltage output to drive external equipment - this module could therefore be taken, on its own, and provide what you are requeasting.

Jason:

"If people wanted to contribute, then they're welcome to, as long as they understand that the "final product" is a reference design and that anyone is welcome to take the design and build a product out of it.  We'd make they say something like "derived from the TW Theremin 007" somewhere in the product manual or literature to give credit to the creators. "

I think you perhaps misunderstand the legal situation - You have no power to "make they say something like "derived from the TW Theremin 007"" - Unless an idea is patented, if it is published, anyone is free to use it however they wish, and free to manafacture and modify as suits them without giving any credit to the originator/s. One can prevent them from using your copyrighted material (schematics, layouts, descriptions etc) in as much that they may not copy these - but if they re-draw the schematic and do a new layout, they can publish those..

The ONLY "Power" you have is with regard to your trade name / mark, and the only legal right you have is the ability to prevent trademark violation or the "passing off" of goods by people wishing to mislead potential purchasers into believing TW endorses their product.

Personally, I have no problem with people using designs I make public - Yeah, it would be nice to get credit every now and then - But thats uncommon... However, if anyone ever dared to produce a crap design (or even a ok design)and say it was from me, without my written permission, I would sell my soul to the devil to pay the legal fees sooner than let them get away with it!

For me, honor and reputation are paramount - If I produced a crap design, (and I have done! ;-) I will own this and do what I can to put matters right - But I will be damned before I let anyone use my name to promote their rubbish.. I have probably lost bags of money because I am too fussy about what I will release - so having someone "pass off" anything as something which I have been involved with, switches me into "kill" mode LOL ;-)..  I expect others to react the same way, which of course is absurd.

Fred.

Hi Fred, 

Yes, the EV-5 it basically two potentiometers, AFAIK, although I'm not sure why it has a TRS jack - signal in, signal out and ground?) I believe other expression pedals that use an optical mechanism (so I guess not passive) can be used interchangeably with the EV-5. It appears to be a de facto standard - a lot of my guitar effects pedals have an option to plug in an EV-5 or equivalent expression pedal to override one of the potentiometers on the pedal. For instance, on my flanger it allows me to vary the modulation rate with my foot.

I suppose my question is, if I had the volume module of a Modular TW theremin would I be able to use it to variably attenuate something other than a line-level audio signal, for instance the signal that a typical 9v effects pedal with an expression pedal option would send through an expression pedal?