"Linda Lafferty from MOOG MUSIC does a little demo on the new THEREMINI showing some of the voices I don't think we've heard before. She also points out that the instrument has "a real analogue heterodyning oscillator"...but I'm not sure I know what that means anymore!" - coalport
It means, I think, that heterodyning is going on for digitization / temperature drift purposes, not for direct audio use. But I think the phrase as they are using it is a bit disingenuous by implying something beyond how they are likely really using it in there. They probably have to heterodyne in order to get sufficient resolution at the processor data port or interrupt. But it also looks good on the spec sheet (in a false kind of way if it works the way I imagine it works), and I think that's the real reason they keep bringing it up.
Interesting video. It seems the playing range here is set quite short, just over a foot or so. They say the sensitivity is adjustable, is the playing range as well? One of the things that always impresses me about well made Theremins (Leo's stuff, the subscope) is how people can play the thing from across the freaking room (I'm exaggerating: ~half a meter from the antenna). I wonder how the Theremini fares in that department?
I can't say I'm entirely blown away by the "players" they're getting to demo these things. Anyone can fart around, but a true player can show you what an instrument is truly capable of. You wouldn't catch Roland or Yamaha employing a 5 year old playing chopsticks to demo their keyboards, they invariably call in a 50 something studio session wizard who knows his chops. If he has a pony tail and / or tats it's a plus.
"She also points out that the instrument has "a real analogue heterodyning oscillator"...but I'm not sure I know what that means anymore!" - Coalport
I am actually disgusted by this deliberate misleading of people - and thats what it is! "Real analogue heterodyning oscillator"..
Why say that? Its absolutely meaningless unless one can LISTEN to this heterodyning signal, AND YOU CANT!
I am now convinced - Moog may not be telling "lies" (I personally think they are) - but to all effect and purpose, they are lying through their teeth! - People generally tell lies or mis-inform because they think they need to... So why do they think they need to?
It would be a bit like if I produced a theremin with a heterodyning and a digital voice (data for the digital voice being extracted from the heterodyning voice), but the heterodyning voice sounded so horrible that I decided not to mix it into the audio and just feed the digital voice to the audio output..
If I then went 'round telling folks that I had a fully analogue heterodyning voice inside this theremin, I would not be "lying" but I would certainly be DELIBERATELY misleading! (in my view this is a lie, or every bit as bad as a lie) - The only reason I would tell people there was a analogue heterodyning voice inside, would be to mislead them into believing that this made my theremin "better" in some way. IMO, I would have several choices - I could say nothing, and leave the sounds to speak for themselves - Or I could say it had a digital voice (as Moog ARE doing) - but IF I was to say "it has a digital voice And an analogue heterodyning oscillator" THEN (As Moog are doing) I would be deliberately misleading and IMO "dishonest".
The problem is that Moog is using technical jargon to decieve - "Real analogue heterodyning oscillator".. is not a meaningfull statement - you dont get a "heterodyning oscillator" - you get 2 oscillators heterodyned in a mixer, usually to produce a "voice" - it doesnt produce a "heterodyning oscillator" .. People think of the word "oscillator" as something producing AUDIO - so saying "Real analogue heterodyning oscillator" is the same as saying "Real analogue heterodyning VOICE" to most - But there IS NO "Real analogue heterodyning VOICE", and there is NO "Real analogue heterodyning oscillator" because such a thing cannot exist - you need 2 oscillators and a mixer to get a heterodyning voice! If you have 2 high frequency oscillators and heterodyne these to produce a result you then use to provide data to a computer (which is what the Theremini does) you do not have a "heterodyning oscillator" and you do not have a "heterodyning voice" - Heterodyning is utterly irrelevant, and saying you have a "heterodyning oscillator" is telling lies! (or at best, showing that you dont know what you are talking about!) _ I could believe it was a mistake if only one Moog Rep had said it - but the "heterodyning" "deception" is being repeated at a high level in Moog - This is deliberate!
I wont buy any new Moog product after hearing this (not that this will cause them any worry, LOL ;-) - Cant believe what they say anymore.. I now question whether the Moog "Analogue" synths, the Voyagers and Fattys etc (particularly the ones created without any involvement from Bob) are as "analogue" as we are led to believe - You could say that if "it sound analogue, who cares?" - Well, I have a thing about being lied to - and trust is a big part of any transaction - for me, when this goes, I buy from someone else (they may also be lying, but at least I dont know thay theyr lying! ;-)
"But its still the same classic theremin that weve all come to love" - NO, ITS NOT!!!
Fred.
" It seems the playing range here is set quite short, just over a foot or so. They say the sensitivity is adjustable, is the playing range as well? " - Dewster
I think this is probably because of the show - with people walking about, one needs the null set quite close to the antenna if one doesnt want random bleeps etc.. At the Festival hall I would often go and reduce the null distance on the theremins at busy times (this only works if you have automated wrong-side muting - something which I had on the H1, and is probably intrinsic in the theremini)
Also, when there are crowds walking about near any non-directional theremin, its impossible to play (or at least impossible for anything non-random.. "Hymn for London Bridge" was an example of where the crowd was used deliberately as a "pitch modulator")
But even with those mitigators, I agree with you Dewster - The Demos are a joke! .. There is nothing I have seen or heard which does anything to shift my impression that this is a toy - And there have been no sounds I have heard which I would want on anything I record!
ps - It could be argued that Bob "misled" people WRT the E-Pro voice (at least) - But I dont think he did.. Non-Disclosure of the mode of operation is, IMO, something different to deliberately emphasising (and misrepresenting) an aspect as if it is relevant, and deliberately misleading people - which is what Moog IS doing at this time!
"Anyone else notice the strange static / bleeping / space echo noises during the patch changes?" - Dewster (below)
Couldnt not hear them! .. But this, I think, can be ignored.. No real thereminist would fiddle with presets without muting their theremin, I think.. And anyway, one expects bleepy static sounds from musical toys and musical greeting cards with digtal voices.
There is nothing which I have seen in any of the 'official' Moog demo demonstrations of the Theremini, such as the one above which, would make me want to run out and buy one.
In fact if I didn't know what a theremin was I would still be in the dark.
"Couldnt not hear them! .. But this, I think, can be ignored.. No real thereminist would fiddle with presets without muting their theremin, I think.." - FredM
"Yup, it seemed to happen when she touched the volume croissant." - GordonC
The mute must not work very well because I'm hearing them with her hand on the volume "croissant" (*snicker*). I could be mistaken but the scratchy space noises seem to be happening when she is fiddling with the preset knob.
I suppose it could be that this Theremini isn't setup / adjusted correctly (which would be kind of ironic). Or perhaps it has an early version of SW, companies often rush to get stuff to NAMM.
I want to see someone play this thing from across the room!
"In fact if I didn't know what a theremin was I would still be in the dark." - RoyP
"A theremin is the only electronic musical instrument you play without touching" - Says Linda Lafferty from MOOG MUSIC..."
So waddaya mean you"would still be in the dark." Huh ???
All you need to know is that you play it without touching it ! - Thats AWESOME! That, Alone, should be enough to cause you to buy a theremini !
Oh, and dont forget -
Without the theremin you probably wouldnt have the Mini-Moog or the synths which followed it..
Everyone here at Moog Musick loves the theremin ! And dont forget that Bob loved the theremin! The theremin was Bobs first love -
Cmon - We are Moog Musick, we woudnt rip you off with a fake theremin!
Yuk!
Pass the bucket, i wanna pewk !
One thing Linda did get right, was in saying ""A theremin is the only electronic musical instrument you play without touching""
At first I thought the "electronic" was a redundant word, but then realized that there is one acoustic instrument played without "touching" it, and thats the voice.
"The mute must not work very well because I'm hearing them with her hand on the volume "croissant" (*snicker*). I could be mistaken but the scratchy space noises seem to be happening when she is fiddling with the preset knob." - Dewster
You are right - it makes those noises when the theremini should be muted because the croissant is being touched..
This looks like something of a joke! you couldnt use that toy in a performance setting! LOL.. those sort of noises indicate to me that theres no bounds checking on values sent to the processor... Easily fixable in software IF (as I did on my H1 back in 2010) the HF oscillators are fed to the processor and compared - (I was able to do this on a tiny 8 pin 8 MIP processor - the processor was only there to do auto-muting ) But not possible if one is only looking at the heterodyned signal.. Because the heterodyned signal doesnt provide any data from which you can determine whether one is on the wrong side of the null point.
Fred.
I think Gordon is right!
It is "Excessive" capacitance on the volume antenna which causes the noises - I expect that as the hand touches the croissant AND the other hand approaches the control panel (adding more to-ground capacitance) it goes funny..
One small capacitor in series with the croissant will probably fix that, at the cost of some croissant sensitivity!
With all that plastic, its increddible to me that the croissant wasnt made of plastic with an inner conductor - to build a volume antenna circuit based on one with a known problem, and not fix this problem by the simple mechanism of galvanic isolation (as is done by EW owners who put insulation on their loops) just shows total lack of care and interest... (in fact, fixing it by correcting the real problem at source would be best ... This gives me little hope that theyve put any ESD protection into the theremini.. With a plastic cabinet and a more ignorant mass market, perhaps the theremini will give Moog more problems with returns they ave imagined....
Hey, does anyone at Moog look at TW ? Nah, of course not! ... Except perhaps now if they hear that some folks here are slaggin them off ...
Randy, where are you? Waiting for your analysis of the situation... Aaargh!
I will post a full writeup of my direct experience with this instrument and my interactions with the Moog Music people. I just need to compile all the details. I was at the Moog booth on all four days of the NAMM show, I gathered all essential details of the instrument from the company's point of view, and I had enough time (and space) on the fourth day to understand the Theremini from a thereminist's point of view.
I'll make a new thread here on TW to clear the air a little bit. One interesting point to mention about my personal experience is that my current impressions of the instrument are vastly different than my initial impressions (in the positive direction). It will be comprehensive so it will take me a while to write, but fortunately I have an excellent memory...
