Claravox Centennial Theremin - Post Your Thoughts Here

Posted: 6/1/2021 3:35:23 PM

From: Basking Ridge, New Jersey, USA

Joined: 12/12/2020

I decided to contact mine, Prymaxe, to see if they had heard anything. Here’s what they just provided me!Good luck with Prymaxe. I waited 6 months for a Eurorack order from them that never shipped, and they kept telling me it should ship within a week. I'd save your BBB energy for them and let Moog do their thing personally.

I’m leaving my BBB complaint open as Moog hasn’t been honest - at least we now know how many they’ll be making. The rest of the information, in true Moog fashion, doesn’t give us any anticipated dates, other than they “have yet to begin shipping”  and it will take “several months” to fill the demand.

Given what I was told last week (see previous post),  this current information is mostly just a positive spin on what we’ve already been told. We do know that Moog has now decided to make this a limited edition, in contrast to their statement that “There is no limit to number of units that will be built.” BTW, this statement is still on Moog’s web site. Of course, a limited edition is very good news. 

I suspect that the discussions about Moog’s refusal to keep us updated (it really can’t be construed any other way) on public forums and social media has forced Moog’s hand to give us a bit more information. Moog has also flip-flopped on how many they were going to make - first it was a limited number, then unlimited, and now limited. by holding Moog’s feet to the fire is, perhaps, forcing their hand to do the right thing. As we still have no idea when Moog is really going to ship - it’s going to take a long time to build 2,000 instruments. I’m still in a dilemma with my own instrument situation - especially if it’s going to take many more months before delivery.

Regarding Prymaxe, this is my own first dealing with them and I finally had to get assertive to gain information. Just a few days ago they indicated they might receive a shipment this week - which clearly wasn’t going to happen. The way I got the document I attached today is that I told them others have been hearing updates from their dealers (true, even if they were hearing different things) and that I had started filing complaints against Moog for their dishonesty (also true - Moog’s customers have been forcing them to cough up information since this fiasco began). I’ve recently heard from others who have had bad experiences with Prymaxe and I’ve been especially concerned with their refund policy as it pertains to our situation. I remain very unhappy that I had to pay in full at the time of order, when Moog had falsely represented that delivery was eminent only to learn, a mere two days later of the “delay.” I’m also unhappy that I’d just receive “store credit,” instead of a full refund given the situation. At this point, I just hope that we still receive instruments in the not to distant future. There is no reason to believe, based on today’s “update” that the Claravox is out of Moog’s “pilot production” phase. 

We can also hope that the Claravox will be a high quality instrument that Moog has a reputation for building. Of course, we can hope that Moog is learning, perhaps the hard way, that customers really are important.

Posted: 6/1/2021 5:21:53 PM

From: Basking Ridge, New Jersey, USA

Joined: 12/12/2020

Moog has also just updated their web site: Claravox Updated Website 

Posted: 6/1/2021 5:40:38 PM

Joined: 10/24/2020

And here's a tour of the Moog factory upgrade, posted by Sweetwater a week ago.

Posted: 6/1/2021 6:29:46 PM

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

Here's Gregoire Blanc's Claravox sound samples over at Soundcloud:

I find that Moog page kinda weird to navigate, everything is sideways.

Posted: 6/2/2021 2:41:28 PM

From: Montana, USA

Joined: 9/2/2019

I’ve recently heard from others who have had bad experiences with Prymaxe and I’ve been especially concerned with their refund policy as it pertains to our situation. I remain very unhappy that I had to pay in full at the time of order, when Moog had falsely represented that delivery was eminent only to learn, a mere two days later of the “delay.” I’m also unhappy that I’d just receive “store credit,” instead of a full refund given the situation.

I'm impressed that you managed to get any information at all out of Prymaxe

Anyway, I don't think you'd have any trouble winning a credit card chargeback, since they haven't come close to following the FTC Mail Order Rule.

Posted: 6/2/2021 3:25:26 PM

Joined: 6/2/2021

My dealer relayed the following from Moog today: At this exact point in time, I am sorry but I don’t know. Things are still moving pretty slowly with manufacturing and lots of QC issues with our supply chain. As soon as we know anything we’ll let you know asap. Sorry I don’t have better news for you yet!Time for the games to stop. As I mentioned in the complaint I filed with the Better Business Bureau this morning, customers are not Moog’s sources for their crowdfunding.I’m certain that Moog monitors this board; therefore, if they refuse to provide the BBB with very specific answers to the following questions, my next complaint will be (that’s not a threat but a promise) with the Federal Trade Commission: Bureau of Consumer Protection. 1. What are the specific reasons for the delays? 2. When will real production (not “pilot production”) begin?3. How long will production take before instruments  are shipped to dealers?4. When can we expect delivery?Again, specific answers are required - no more non-response “responses” or nebulous “updates.” Given that it strongly appears that Moog is engaged in fraud, they had better provide immediate and very concrete answers to the above questions via an official public update. We’ve had to resort to the tidbits we receive from our dealers, which are often in conflict, as we attempt to obtain information. Just this weekend, we’ve heard three different stories from different dealers.My dealer, Prymaxe, suggested that they’d receive delivery by the end of this week - we know that’s not true.Another dealer has indicated “October.”A third dealer (assuming it’s not one of the above) has just indicated “we don’t know” (probably the closest to the truth).How could Moog have NOT known about QC issues and supply chain problems at the time they first offered the Claravox for sale? How could they continue to state that delivery was going to take place prior to the end of December 2020 when they hadn’t even begun their “pilot production” process? Why did they wait until just two weeks before their originally announced delivery date to let us know, on December 15, 2020, that there was going to be a delay? Still, they continue to offer the Claravox for sale, even today.It’s time for Moog to fess up to what is going on. No more games.

ContraDude, as Moog has not received any funds from you, nor from your dealer, it cannot be considered fraud, nor is it an issue for the FTC or the BCP. If your dealer has required payment, in full, months ago, for a product that was not in production yet, your issue is with your dealer. Most dealers required a payment form upfront, but do not actually charge you until the product is available. Some will take a small deposit. A dealer that requires full payment, on a product with a loose projected ship date on a product that is not in manufacturing yet, is just enjoying sitting on your money. Your issue is should be with your dealer.

I understand your frustrations with Moog's lack of communication. I work in the manufacturing side of the high-end bicycle industry, as a product engineer/designer. I work on contract, so I have seen how different companies deal with updating customers on product delays. Some are definitely better than others. I think Moog, even with the huge amount of uncertainty they have most likely had to deal with, could and should have done better. They are a small company, so they likely don't have someone dedicated to that specific task for that specific product, like a large conglomerate might have, but they still could have given updates on a regular basis, even if just to say, we are still working through delays, only giving new details when they have concrete information. Unfortunately, we are talking about huge supply chain network here. Their suppliers have suppliers, which also have suppliers, which also have suppliers. So, we are talking a huge snowball effect for both delays and vague information. Moog trying to get an ETA from their board supplier, who's waiting on an ETA for a turnpot for the board, who's waiting on an ETA for the wire used for the coil inside the turnpot, is like getting a cat follow a list of rules, that includes do not lay on the couch. Good luck with that one! In my work, we literally have a 4 month delay on the shipment of a bike, do to a delay in the assembly plant getting the chains, do to a delay at the chain manufacturer getting the pins for the links from their pin manufacturer! 4 months do to pins for the chains! But, getting an ETA was a joke and that was even with me actually knowing people at both the chain manufacturer and the pin manufacturer, know, as in I go out drinking with them when I'm in China!

I happened to order the Moog for my wife, as an anniversary present, so it's not even for me (one day I'll get myself a Moog synth to play with). I ordered it through a dealer (Kraft) that doesn't charge you till it ships. It would have been cool to have it on our anniversary, but, it's life, especially in the pandemic age. 

Posted: 6/2/2021 10:09:57 PM

Joined: 2/5/2021

Well posted, BFNastali.  

I’m in the wine import and wholesale business, and it’s been a crazy ride.  We represent one winery that has been waiting almost a year for their glass order so they can start bottling.  

I remember an email in April from a Champagne supplier that told us they filled up their US warehouses with over a year’s worth of Champagne.  I remember laughing at that email because that supplier always says they have everything under control - always.  Well, they ran out of stock in a few months and they’re still out of stock.

We’re doing our best to keep our customers informed, but there are often multiple issues, with one issue delaying another. It only takes one person in the chain of communication, and companies involved, to not be realistic and thus cause all sorts of unexpected delays and out of stocks.  It’s been hard to keep up with the workload, employee health issues, and the often frequently changing “reasons” for the delays.  

I’m just happy that Moog is showing some movement.  Maybe mine will arrive in time for Christmas as originally promised.

Posted: 6/3/2021 3:23:50 AM

From: Basking Ridge, New Jersey, USA

Joined: 12/12/2020

BFnastali “. . . Moog has not received any funds from you, nor from your dealer, it cannot be considered fraud, nor is it an issue for the FTC or the BCP. If your dealer has required payment, in full, months ago, for a product that was not in production yet, your issue is with your dealer.”

Hi BFnastali,

Welcome to TW. I see that you just registered today and that this is your first post. You’ll find that there are some really helpful people here. 

Regarding Moog, are you 100% certain Moog has not received any money? Even if they have not, their actions fit the legal definition of fraud:

“In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.  The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it.  The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance.”

Here’s the full definition, as provided by Cornell Law School (a frequently cited law reference): 

Legal definition of fraud.

Let’s take a look at the facts.

1. The pandemic has caused great disruptions across our economy - no one questions that.

2. Despite the pandemic, Moog made the intentional decision to announce the sale of the Claravox, with great fanfare, well into the middle of the pandemic, on or before October 22, 2020, as noted by the start date of this thread. Moog also posted “Sound Samples” of the Claravox on October 21, 2020; here’s a link: 

October 21, 2020 Claravox Sound samples.

Note that Moog also provided a link to their web site on the same date regarding the Claravox.

3. We know that dealers began offering the Claravox for sale no later that October 22, 2020. Again, merely refer to this thread for confirmation of this - at least Kraft Music was selling them by this date.

4. It is also well-established that Moog was indicating that Claravox was going to be a limited edition (but they didn’t specify a quantity) and that delivery would occur during December 2020.

5. Moog announced that, “The instrument is available for pre-order today, October 22nd, with units expected to begin shipping in December 2020.”

October 22, 2020 Moog Announces Claravox

6. Moog was also providing information to the press, no later than October 22, 2020 that the Claravox would be a “limited edition” and “is expected to ship in December [2020].”

October 22, 2020 Moog announcement of Claravox in the press.

7. At least one European dealer had apparently been told that they would receive a shipment by December 5, 2020. This would not be an unreasonable time for a merchant to receive a shipment in order to process and send to their customers prior to the holidays. It also suggests that your claim that “Moog only had a loose projected ship date on a product that [was] not in production yet” is not accurate. Especially since Moog had been heavily promoting the Claravox for six weeks prior to the time a European dealer had been expecting delivery. Note: see the bottom of the graphic below; a link to the site, which still contains this information, is found under the screen capture.

Dealer expected delivery of Claravox by December 5, 2020

8. Regardless, dealers continued to sell the Claravox, with no word from Moog that anything was amiss until December 15, 2020 - just two weeks before delivery they had represented would occur in December. That information is listed earlier in this forum and includes:

“Claravox Centennial: Update

The response to Claravox Centennial has exceeded our expectations and it is our focus to get them to customers as quickly as possible. We are excited to begin production of this Limited Edition instrument this month and are currently staging the production areas, verifying incoming materials and preparing for shipments. While it will likely take us into Q2 2021 to fulfill the total global customer demand, we expect to begin shipping production quantities at the start of the year.”

9. Given what we know now, allegedly Moog didn’t even have the materials to begin production in December, they most certainly hadn’t begun production (despite their heavy promotions over the ppreceding 7 1/2 weeks) with continuous representations that delivery was eminent. There is also no evidence that dealers were aware of any problems. It would absurd to suggest that Moog’s management wasn’t aware of serious problems between October 22, 2020 and December 15, 2020, regardless of the pandemic and yet they continued to hype the Claravox.

There can be absolutely no question that Moog’s actions have meet the legal definition of fraud, whether intentional or negligent (refer to the definition given above).

10. Now, let’s jump ahead to the current situation. Last week, Moog notified many of us directly that they had “just begun pilot production of [the] Claravox Centennial.” Okay, great. They then reported, “we have not yet begun shipping.” Again, okay.

Then, just two days ago, one of Moog’s endorsers (very wonderful player!) announced that he had just received a Claravox - cool! Great! Right? Oops, not quite. Moog told us that “pilot production” had just started and that they “hadn’t yet begun shipping.” Huh? What? They must have a magic wand if they were able to start production AND begin shipping (from NC to France, no less)!

11. Meanwhile, things were rightfully heating up here and on social media as Moog had promised regular updates and transparency. Then, yesterday after a holiday weekend, Moog provides their latest “update” (only their second one since this all began) and made statements that, “production is under way” (notice that they didn’t state if it was “pilot production” or production for release to consumers and “a limited quantity of Claravox Centennial theremins began shipping from our factory last week,” along with marketing fluff. Lawyers are quite adept (like politicians) with nebulous semantics. Again, huh? Moog had just told us production hadn’t begun and they hadn’t started shipping.

So, let’s examine if these are really just conspiracy theories (kinda like walnut trees - lol).

11. We know that at least two (although there may be a third) Moog endorsers who have received a Claravox - Grégoire Blanc and Dorit Chrysler (she’s going to perform a concert in Germany on the Claravox this week). This information is found elsewhere on the ‘net. Both of these amazing musicians should receive the earliest instruments as they have been involved in the promotions of the Claravox. However, Moog can now claim that “production has begun” (from their “pilot production“) and “limited quantities” (to their endorsers) have been shipped. Has anyone else on this forum or elsewhere on the ‘net received an instrument?

12. Moog has promised (they like to do that),

“The manual will be available for download at shortly before Claravox Centennial starts shipping later this year.”

The key word here is, “before.” If the Claravox has already started shipping, then where’s the manual? Unless, of course, the Claravox is still in the “pilot production stage.” Hmmmm. . .

13. Moog states that “The Claravox Editor will be available for download in Apple’s App Store when Claravox Centennial starts shipping later this year.” Oooops, it’s not there. Is Moog shipping instruments without the manual or the software editor?

It would be great to hear if ANY customers (not Moog’s endorsers) have received their instrument, manual, or software. Something smells fishy in Moogville. Given that others have reported over the past few days that their dealers have informed them the Claravox won’t be shipped until October - what is the truth?

Posted: 6/3/2021 10:39:24 AM

Joined: 6/3/2021

I'm also with BFNastali on this one... I ordered my Theremin in Australia last year as a Christmas present for the wife. She is super excited to eventually get it. Instead she had to settle for a Theremin method book by Caroline Eyck.

I have been a closet reader of the forums ever since I ordered as our excitement is not waning. The delays on instruments is definitely not just linked to Moog. I waited 8 months for a bass guitar that I would normally get off the shelf. It is a sign of the times.

What I am tiring of, is the same negative Nancy comments that keep coming up. We get it, you're upset. Cancell your order, move on and be done with it. 

Or start another thread on "Moog is the devil- join me for a rollicking good time bagging them."

Can we try and remain positive for an outstanding looking instrument at a fantastic price for a pro level instrument. That will get into our sweaty, waiting hands as soon as they can! 

Posted: 6/3/2021 1:16:44 PM

From: Basking Ridge, New Jersey, USA

Joined: 12/12/2020

. . .What I am tiring of, is the same negative Nancy comments that keep coming up. . . Or start another thread on "Moog is the devil- join me for a rollicking good time bagging them."

Me thinks there be trolls about 😀 Three noob apologists in support of Moog’s actions in two days - only one post each. If you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. 😏 Perhaps you could start a thread, “I ❤️ Moog.” 😏

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