Alternative gestural controllers

Over on the home page, there is a discussion on Augmented Reality which inspired me to start this thread.

I think AR is probably a bit in the future and likely to be expensive in the early days - I also wonder about the complexity of its gestural recognition system, and whether this will be fast enough for glitch free music control. Some time in the future I have no doubt AR will be capable of replacing the theremin "interface", but I think that time may be a while yet.

I came across the MYO controller which lacks "Augmented Reality" (as in, there is no visual feedback mechanism intrinsic to it) but, to me, looks well suited for musical applications. (or at least as "well suited" as any non-tactile interface.. And I personally have strong doubts about this kind of interface for musical equipment - I no longer believe that the theremin is a sensible instrument - I think that, but for its novelty, it would have gone the way it "should" have gone - onto the scrapheap of daft ideas! - Yeah - heresy and blasphemy here, I know ;-)

https://getmyo.com/

Using muscle impulses picked up on a wrist band (combined with other mechanical signals), the "source" control signal should have extremely low latency I think - Its an analogue "front end" using biometric data which starts to appear even before the muscles actually move.

Provided this biometric (and other) data is processed quickly, and with high enough resolution, I think the MYO could be ideally suited for gestural music control.. If one had a MYO one each arm, I see no reason why the days of antennas and/or cameras etc should not be over soon.

at $150 per MYO, shipping early 2014, its still in the future - Developers of musical instruments will need to produce the software for their applications and integrate the API's - either for use on PCs or for use in dedicated hardware - so we probably wont see a MYO "theremin" until late 2014 earliest, if we ever see one.

Fred.

Just found another - It makes all my efforts to develop my capacitive 3d J/S look like a complete waste of time by a hobbyist!

8 cubic feet of X,Y,Z sensing area, ability to resolve all 10 fingers with accuracy of 1/100th mm ... Under $80 .. Shipping next month... https://www.leapmotion.com/product

I have no idea what technology is employed in the above - the original looked like it might be capacitive - but the production units are so small.. Optical / camera? Combined ? Whatever - I cannot imagine resolving individual fingers using capacitive sensing, let alone to the resolution of 0.01mm .. In fact, this kind of resolution in such a large area pushes every technology I know beyond any solution I can think of .. even at ten times the price.

This, to me, looks huge - Something which could utterly change the way we interact with electronic appliances... Its not just theremin developers who will be having to re-think their plans, I imagine that lots of technology will become redundant quite quickly if this product is even close to its claims... They already mention musical applications (air guitar for example) so presumably the access time is fast..

 Since seeing the Leap controller (above) I am less impressed by the MYO (below) .. The MYO would probably be useful for more portable applications (?) but the LEAP looks like its ready to go, and possibly ideally suited for "theremin replacement".

Some more on the LEAP controller and music:

Looking at the sensor, its probably optical - can see 3 lights from it (or at least the camera can).

Thanks for these interesting links Fred!

The MYO videos all kind of look faked, which isn't a good sign.  One segment appears to be actively courting the military, which isn't a good sign either IMO.  And both seem to have a fair amount of professional cash thrown at their promos, which makes me a bit suspect.  I'd imagine the MYO, which deals with muscle impulses that need to be integrated, and the levels of which are on the order of environmental noise, is laggy and prone to false triggering.

Like you, I think the Leap is optical, probably two cameras, or one with some kind of differential lighting.  The wooden box controller thing that the Leap developer built looks really clunky, and watching him use it makes me think he either has some mighty big callouses on his finger tips, or he leaves a bloody trail after short musical workouts.  I would have kept that thing in the closet when the film crew arrived.  How did he go from that block of wood with a nail in it to this sleek looking precision optical USB gesture sensor?

"It’s up to 200 times more sensitive than existing motion-control technology. That’s how you can draw or paint mini masterpieces inside a one-inch cube." 

Hey, I never could draw or paint very well, I'll have to get me one of these!  Move over micro Picasso, there's a new one-inch cubist on the block!

"How did he go from that block of wood with a nail in it to this sleek looking precision optical USB gesture sensor?" - Dewster

He didnt. Being a developer for Leap applications does not require any involvement with the Leap hardware, other than being able to write apps and use the API's etc.. He doesnt work for Leap, he just applied (probably in the early days when Leap was less fussy about who they admitted to their club), got a dev-kit, and started to nail together the app he demonstrates.

Yes - I found the demo severely unimpressive.. The crudeness of his physical instrument being emulated in the crudeness of his use of Leap.

"And both seem to have a fair amount of professional cash thrown at their promos, which makes me a bit suspect."

The Leap is funded by VC's to the tune of $44M - Some big VC's with reputations for getting their investments right - VC's who, if they get involved, dominate the venture and bully the innovators into submission - then eventually take control and float the company, making and taking huge profits, with the innovators getting peanuts..

Been there - My best friend was the MD of a company where I worked (He was my boss - not a friend at that time) We developed new motors for electric vehicles - He needed funds, got in with one iof these VC's, They ended up owning the company and all its IP, and after 2 years of battles in the high court, my friend left bancrupt.

Fred.

Sorry everyone, I need to work on not coming across so harsh (particularly when it comes to musical controllers).

One of my favorite Dilberts:

That's a tough story Fred, makes me not want to work with anyone (or at least not with those in suits).  Suppose I'd rather be a soup-to-nuts loner anyway.

"Sorry everyone, I need to work on not coming across so harsh" - Dewster

Lol, you have a long way to go before you catch me up on that ;-) !

"That's a tough story Fred"

Its just one of many - I have always gravitated to small innovative companies, and as a result have probably witnessed more of this kind of thing than most.. The irony is that the better the idea, the less likely it seems that the innovators will make anything out of it! To get an innovation into production, one needs money - Most money comes from sharks.. They set terms which are entirely unreasonable and outragous, but you have a choice - accept the terms or forget the idea.

Thinking back on companies I have been involved with - Scopex (LCD oscilloscopes - developed a pseudo-random LCD sequencing scheme which overcame many problems), Special Engineering Developments (advanced packaging / gluing with major environmental advantages), PML Flightlink Ltd (Motors + Joysticks - Developed radical in-wheel motor for electric vehicles) are the most major which were taken to the cleaners by the money lenders, and the innovators left with nothing.. There are 3 more smaller companies which come to mind, and some where the innovators gave up and walked away before they bit the dust..

ps.. There is a happy continuation to the story.. My friend who lost everything picked himself up and came up with a radical new  idea, got funding from UK development grants, and is back in business employing lots of people .. Alas, much of his funding is from the Ministry of Defense - Doesnt bother him, but it limits what development of his I can get involved in.

I love the Dilbert!  ;-)  Reminds me of a recent exchange here......

Fred.

dewster said: "Sorry everyone, I need to work on not coming across so harsh"

I like this Dilbert, not only does the tech share his files he demonstrates his results so that it is obvious where he is coming from. This could be the first step to generating free energy, a power supply. We must not jump to quick conclusions from mere observation. There are many things I never will understand so my mind is open.

Christopher

" he share his files he demonstrates his results "  "This could be the first step to generating free energy, a power supply." - RS

LOL ;-)

Yeah, stick a nail in a piece of wood, claim its a perpetual motion free energy "power supply".. share you files detailing where you put the nail, the nails material and details, and the dimensions of the wood..

None of the above will actually turn your "construction" into anything more than a piece of wood with a nail in it!

Oh, just in case you thought my "Reminds me of a recent exchange here......" was a reference to anything you have posted, I assure you it wasnt!

;-)

Ps.. Dilbert is not the one who put the nail in the wood.. Dilbert is the Engineer! <this has now been corrected in RS original posting>.. Also, not sure what you mean by "demonstrates his results" - All that was demonstrated was a piece of wood with a nail in it, which had no function or use as a power supply.

IMO, there can be a risk with having your mind too open - the risk is that your brains may, over time, leak out - Or if extreme, fall out completely!

Fred said: "None of the above will actually turn your "construction" into anything more than a piece of wood with a nail in it!"

I guarantee you that with the right power connection I can take that block of wood & nail and use them as an excellent volume control proximity sensor. I could then control a power supply driving sound or light intensity. My current theremin volume control I designed for fun is called "The Flame Thrower" with an intensity that responds perfectly to the intensity of the sound. It is CV on steroids.

I cut away the pitch section in this photo to protect those that do not like change, did not want those that feel the need to hold on to a volume loop to burn themselves. Like a nail in a block of wood there is misdirection here. The volume response is unusually more dominant in the outside field. The light is only for show and does not play into the unique volume response. The light torch is the volume loop, play with white gloves on and the effect is visually stimulating for me, getting too old for eye candy. The sound and light are fully extinguished 4" above the torch. Talk about mesmerizing and flashing the crowd, this seems to fit the thread header.

Christopher

SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC!

"I guarantee you that with the right power connection I can take that block of wood & nail and use them as an excellent volume control proximity sensor." - RS

And? So what !?  ;-) ... Wrap a coil 'round a iron nail, connect up a amplifier, and you have a device which can be used to locate live cables carrying AC (you could even mount the amplifier, battery and a small speaker onto the wood, so it serves some function..) ... Wire the coil to a DC supply and you create an electromagnet.. Connect a HF oscillator's tank to a nail and you have a VFO (with an extremely small antenna ;-).. There are lots of things a nail in a block of wood could be used for..

This does not mean that a nail in a block of wood is a power locator, or an electromagnet, or a theremin.. Its a nail in a block of wood!

Fred.

LOL ;-) The nonsense which gets posted at TW sometimes is beyond belief!  - And the fact that I bother replying to it is enough to make me question my sanity!

When it comes to comedy, Dilbert pales by comparison! ;-) The opening image on the Dilbert cartoon sums this whole issue up, IMO.. "I Didnt know how to design a power supply, so I put a nail into a block of wood" .. Ignorance, followed by pointless action, followed by blather to cover the ignorance ("ill give you the files in case you need to make changes")- as in, give it to someone who does know how to design a power supply, but take the credit when this person does the job for you... Hey, the comedy aspect gets a bit close to the bone when I think about how many times I have been given a block of wood with a nail in it, and got no credit for turning this into what was needed.

Even worse is when one cannot turn the block of wood with a nail in it, into what is required - and get hauled into the MD's office:

"Simon tells me that you spent a week on that layout, and are still nowhere near completion - the deadline was last tuesday"

"I told Simon that it was impossible to put the electronics from this packed 150mm x 100mm double sided SMD board onto a circular board with a diameter of 50mm"

"But Fred, it MUST go onto the 50mm circular board, thats the size of the joystick container"

"It cannot be done ! I said that 1 week ago, It doesnt matter that it must be done - it CANT be done - The only way it might possibly be done is if the circuit was entirely re-designed to remove all the redundancy - But I have been instructed that no change whatsoever is to be made to the circuit"

"Simon says it can be done"

Simon: "If you didnt have such a negetive attitude, you would have done it by now!"

"It CANNOT be done! I ran the auto-placement algorythm on day one, and showed you that, even with components packed in a way that would be impossible to route, we would require 2.5 times the board area"

Simon: "Look at my coffee mug and read what it says!"

Fred: " It says 'Failure is not an option' "

Simon: "Now go and get that board done!"

Fred: "I agree - Failure is not an option - With you as technical director, its an absolute certainty!  I resign! - And I am feeling (as I was) unwell, so I am leaving now - you will get a note from my doctor, and I have a dictaphone in my pocket and have recorded this conversation - You will hear from my solicitor."

The above story is absolutely true! Names have not been changed! ;-) ... The MD (due to insistance by my solicitor that unless the truth regarding the task I was given was independently established, proceedings for constructive and unjustified dismissal would be initiated) got a specialist PCB layout company to assess the board, and they just laughed.. They needed 4 boards to fit the components!

I accpted re-employment at more than double my wage on the condition that I was not under Simon and had no interaction with him, so for 3 years, before the company went into fraudulent recievership (a tactic by the VC's and Simon to legally rip-off the MD) worked from home.

Simon was not sacked or even reprimanded (the MD's most expensive folly) - He went on to work as an "agent" with the VC investors in the company, and having technical director status, his "evidence" against the MD's "incompetence" in the high court resulted in the MD being cut out of the business and forced into personal bancrupcy.

What is really harrowing to me about the Dilbert series, is just how absolutely true to life they are.. And the fact that these absurd scenarios are a common expierience for engineers, that I am far from alone in having been subjected to them- Well, its quite depressing! The nail in the block of wood is NOT an extreme "comedy" scenario - The equivalent happens daily... Usually the "tech" is a person of "superior rank" who is a total lazy incompetent arrogant idiot ..

You are given an impossible task by this idiot, He gives you the "files" which are nothing more than a nail in a block of wood.. You MUST produce the goods - If you dont, you get the blame - often because the idiot has some special relationship with the overlords.. And if you do produce the goods - even if this means throwing away the nail and wood, this idiot gets the credit.

"Once I had the idea, it all came together really quickly" - ROFLMAO! ;-)

The idiots announce their awesome abilities - their "inspiration" and "intuition" in a way which is unchallengable - They declare their block of wood and nail to be something it never can, and never will be... But they do this in a way which convinces other idiots.. "it all just clicked"... ;-) ... And the engineer who actually created the "thing", had the spark of innovation, and did the work fades into obscurity as the bright  light shines from the idiots rear end..