Claravox Centennial Theremin - Post Your Thoughts Here

Posted: 10/23/2020 2:48:45 AM
macteacher

Joined: 8/12/2015

Hello All,

I spent some time with a CSR at Moog today and had a similar experience as Pitts8rh. 

They were very helpful and responsive as I always experienced with Moog, but a lot of answers are still unavailable as I'm sure there's tweaking going on.

Here's some info summarized from the chat to answers to my questions.

there is a pitch correction feature in the Modern mode
the wave shaper is a main component of the heterodyning oscillator
It's loosely based on the Pro, but it is a new design / new oscillator
response knobs are the same as on the Etherwave; they affect the response slope of the antenna
controller inputs are not yet set as I asked if they were the Moog standard 0-5volts.
there has been discussion about making controls responsive to CC commands via Midi, but nothing for sure yet.
There is a similar Register switch as on the Etherwave Pro
There's no spec yet on the lowest note range, but it is stated the in the spec that the traditional mode the range is 5 octaves. (The Theremin Pro had 6.5 octaves and I am interested in using the theremin as a bass so this is a big one for me)

I did request more demos and a live stream if possible.

My impression is that it is a mix of a Theremini and an Etherwave plus.

My hope was this was a callback to the Theremin Pro adding Theremini features.

I'm also not sure of the signal path and that wasn't able to be specified in this conversation as of yet.

Again, I think the specs are being finalized, but the signal path is a pretty major design element, so I'd be surprised if this was still being determined, but if it's a digitally controlled analog signal path, anything may be possible by flashing the firmware.

The only other question I didn't ask, because I'm sure there wasn't an answer to it yet, was how many are slated to be built in the first batch.

In any event, a very interesting development in the Theremin world.

Posted: 10/23/2020 11:34:05 AM
pitts8rh

From: Minnesota USA

Joined: 11/27/2015

Since we can only speculate on what's inside, what do we know from what we can see and hear?

1) To any Etherwave Pro owners, does the voice used in Gregoire Blanc's videos sound similar to one of the EW Pro's settings?

2)  Also for EW Pro owners I would ask how the size of the pitch field looks for his Clair de Lune performance?  It may be the camera angle, but it looks fairly small and compressed to me given the range of notes in that piece.

3) The pitch arm looks too short both aesthetically and practically speaking.  Maybe it's the visual comparison to the Pro, but cross coupling between the pitch and volume sides isn't a good thing - I definitely notice it on the Etherwave. I have to say that if I bought the Claravox it would be with the understanding that I would almost surely be making a longer matching arm to replace the factory design. This would be assuming that the electrical design is similar to the Pro model which would allow the wire to be extended.

4) I especially like one particular feature of the wood cabinet.  They broke away from the traditional sharp-cornered box with the large-radius rounded corners.  It looks like they have thick top and bottom walnut pieces to allow all of the radius to be cut in the end grain.  Very nice, I think, and easy to manufacture too.

5) Don't know what to think of the fabric panels, but I give credit for the creative thinking and following through on a somewhat controversial idea.  It looks like a fairly sturdy speaker grill fabric to me.  Given the color one might think about staining from use, but then I don't know if the panel ever really gets touched that much.  It's not like you're going to get rings around the controls, although avoiding any contact with the panels at all even during assembly or moving might be difficult.

6) They say that timbre settings are storable and yet the website states that it uses analog wave shaping, which makes me wonder if they are using the same wave shaping as the Pro but using digital resistors instead of the Pro's mux/demux ICs switching between discrete resistor values.  Other ideas?  Nate at Moog did state that the controls are encoders, not potentiometers, but I don't know which controls he was referring to at the time.

7) What is "Quantize"?  Is this similar to a Theremini function, and why does it have a "set root" button?  Any decent pitch correction needs more knobs than this to specify the correction window, strength, speed, etc., so what could it do?  Going back and re-reading the website it suggests that this is something to aid learning, so I'm guessing it's a Theremini derivation and not something to get excited about.

8) I realize that not everyone uses pitch preview, but those of us that do don't want to be without it.  If this theremin truly does not have the feature built in (or optionally configurable using the Phones jack), we would be forced to have an external mixer to utilize the tuner output of the Claravox just to get a crude buzzy preview, and by rights it should have some filtering/waveshaping for timbre and loudness control to make it more effective, as Dewster's D-Lev has.  The absence of PP doesn't give warm fuzzies that the Moog engineers consulted with a broad range of players during the concept and development phases of this product.

9) Did I see or did someone suggest that this uses new oscillators? And new compared to what - the EW Pro or the standard Etherwaves (or the Theremini).

10) The first thing I thought of when I saw the built-in bucket brigade delay was how noisy they can be. Added noise isn't necessarily a problem for a theremin, and is in fact desirable for many voices, but I'm wondering if this was a choice based on simplicity or a nod to the retro feel.  Maybe the audio chain is all analog and they wanted to keep it that way?

Anyway, these are morning musings while trying to decide what to do. I sometimes wonder why product descriptions (not being specific to Moog here) are so often sketchy and short on information but heavy on giant images, a trait that seems to be more common now that many websites are trending toward mobile-only formats instead of responsive designs serving both mobile and desktop devices.  After hanging on the phone for many hours over the years asking sales and tech-support questions about products that could have been more effectively answered up front in the descriptions you would think that companies would make every effort to put as much information as possible on the websites.


Posted: 10/23/2020 1:57:01 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"2)  Also for EW Pro owners I would ask how the size of the pitch field looks for his Clair de Lune performance?  It may be the camera angle, but it looks fairly small and compressed to me given the range of notes in that piece."  - pitts8r

He's playing rather close, but the pitches he's playing are rather high.  If you notice around 2:00 his pitch hand withdraw doesn't match the pitch you hear, and they seem to be going out of their way not to show his pitch hand, all of which might just be video editing convenience, but who knows?

"4) I especially like one particular feature of the wood cabinet.  They broke away from the traditional sharp-cornered box with the large-radius rounded corners.  It looks like they have thick top and bottom walnut pieces to allow all of the radius to be cut in the end grain.  Very nice, I think, and easy to manufacture too."

I thought of doing this a couple of months ago, but with acoustic guitar side type bent wood.  Might make for a featherweight Theremin - that cracks open like an egg when you stumble over the mic stand!

"5) Don't know what to think of the fabric panels, but I give credit for the creative thinking and following through on a somewhat controversial idea.  It looks like a fairly sturdy speaker grill fabric to me.  Given the color one might think about staining from use, but then I don't know if the panel ever really gets touched that much.  It's not like you're going to get rings around the controls, although avoiding any contact with the panels at all even during assembly or moving might be difficult."

I think these are gonna look pretty bad on the used market.  It's just asking for a cat to sharpen its claws on it (or worse!).  Control panels need to be durable and at least somewhat cleanable.  Maybe you can remove it and throw it in the wash?  I can imagine the itchy laundry tag sewn into the back...

"7) What is "Quantize"?  Is this similar to a Theremini function, and why does it have a "set root" button?  Any decent pitch correction needs more knobs than this to specify the correction window, strength, speed, etc., so what could it do?  Going back and re-reading the website it suggests that this is something to aid learning, so I'm guessing it's a Theremini derivation and not something to get excited abut."

I'm certain that it's simple Theremini note quantization, which is more of an effect than a playing aid IMO (some would say gimmick / selling aid).

"9) Did I see or did someone suggest that this uses new oscillators? And new compared to what - the EW Pro or the standard Etherwaves (or the Theremini)."

I think that reference is to the DSP audio oscillator, which gives you sine / triangle / saw / wavetable.

"10) The first thing I thought of when I saw the built-in bucket brigade delay was how noisy they can be. Added noise isn't necessarily a problem for a theremin, and is in fact desirable for many voices, but I'm wondering if this was a choice based on simplicity or a nod to the retro feel.  Maybe the audio chain is all analog and they wanted to keep it that way?"

Moog Inc: "And an on-board analog BBD (bucket brigade) delay adds warmth and depth."  Nothing says "analog" like clock bleed-through and aliasing.  This is 100% retro appeal IMO, which I've always found incredibly annoying.  A tube glowing in there somewhere will give you warmth alright...

"Anyway, these are morning musings while trying to decide what to do. I sometimes wonder why product descriptions (not being specific to Moog here) are so often sketchy and short on information but heavy on giant images, a trait that seems to be more common now that many websites are trending toward mobile-only formats instead of responsive designs serving both mobile and desktop devices.  After hanging on the phone for many hours over the years asking sales and tech-support questions about products that could have been more effectively answered up front in the descriptions you would think that companies would make every effort to put as much information as possible on the websites."

It's corporate secrecy overspill.  No one they'll let you talk to has the authority to tell you anything meaningful, including the web designer and the PR guys.  And why they announce these things before a manual is available, or even the specs are set in stone, is beyond me.   I have to assume we're not the target audience, but these are really geeky devices, so who is?

Moog Inc: "This is a statement piece -- A limited edition tribute to the origins of electronic music, but also to Clara Rockmore..." - I wonder if they are really planning on not making many of these, or if that's just sales pressure talk (buy one now before they're all gone!)?  I mean, why expend the NRE on a dead end product?   I suppose they didn't want to resurrect the EWPro (that thing must be a PITA to manufacture) but Theremins are kind of their thing, so maybe this is a short-term answer to a pent-up demand?

Posted: 10/23/2020 4:18:51 PM
DiggyDog

From: Jax, FL

Joined: 2/14/2005

I haven't been here lately but I ordered mine this morning.

I missed out on the Etherwave Pro so that isn't going to happen with this one.


Posted: 10/23/2020 4:20:14 PM
DiggyDog

From: Jax, FL

Joined: 2/14/2005

"2)  Also for EW Pro owners I would ask how the size of the pitch field looks for his Clair de Lune performance?  It may be the camera angle, but it looks fairly small and compressed to me given the range of notes in that piece."  - pitts8rHe's playing rather close, but the pitches he's playing are rather high.  If you notice around 2:00 his pitch hand withdraw doesn't match the pitch you hear, and they seem to be going out of their way not to show his pitch hand, all of which might just be video editing convenience, but who knows?"4) I especially like one particular feature of the wood cabinet.  They broke away from the traditional sharp-cornered box with the large-radius rounded corners.  It looks like they have thick top and bottom walnut pieces to allow all of the radius to be cut in the end grain.  Very nice, I think, and easy to manufacture too."I thought of doing this a couple of months ago, but with acoustic guitar side type bent wood.  Might make for a featherweight Theremin - that cracks open like an egg when you stumble over the mic stand!"5) Don't know what to think of the fabric panels, but I give credit for the creative thinking and following through on a somewhat controversial idea.  It looks like a fairly sturdy speaker grill fabric to me.  Given the color one might think about staining from use, but then I don't know if the panel ever really gets touched that much.  It's not like you're going to get rings around the controls, although avoiding any contact with the panels at all even during assembly or moving might be difficult."I think these are gonna look pretty bad on the used market.  It's just asking for a cat to sharpen its claws on it (or worse!).  Control panels need to be durable and at least somewhat cleanable.  Maybe you can remove it and throw it in the wash?  I can imagine the itchy laundry tag sewn into the back..."7) What is "Quantize"?  Is this similar to a Theremini function, and why does it have a "set root" button?  Any decent pitch correction needs more knobs than this to specify the correction window, strength, speed, etc., so what could it do?  Going back and re-reading the website it suggests that this is something to aid learning, so I'm guessing it's a Theremini derivation and not something to get excited abut."I'm certain that it's simple Theremini note quantization, which is more of an effect than a playing aid IMO (some would say gimmick / selling aid)."9) Did I see or did someone suggest that this uses new oscillators? And new compared to what - the EW Pro or the standard Etherwaves (or the Theremini)."I think that reference is to the DSP audio oscillator, which gives you sine / triangle / saw / wavetable."10) The first thing I thought of when I saw the built-in bucket brigade delay was how noisy they can be. Added noise isn't necessarily a problem for a theremin, and is in fact desirable for many voices, but I'm wondering if this was a choice based on simplicity or a nod to the retro feel.  Maybe the audio chain is all analog and they wanted to keep it that way?"Moog Inc: "And an on-board analog BBD (bucket brigade) delay adds warmth and depth."  Nothing says "analog" like clock bleed-through and aliasing.  This is 100% retro appeal IMO, which I've always found incredibly annoying.  A tube glowing in there somewhere will give you warmth alright..."Anyway, these are morning musings while trying to decide what to do. I sometimes wonder why product descriptions (not being specific to Moog here) are so often sketchy and short on information but heavy on giant images, a trait that seems to be more common now that many websites are trending toward mobile-only formats instead of responsive designs serving both mobile and desktop devices.  After hanging on the phone for many hours over the years asking sales and tech-support questions about products that could have been more effectively answered up front in the descriptions you would think that companies would make every effort to put as much information as possible on the websites."It's corporate secrecy overspill.  No one they'll let you talk to has the authority to tell you anything meaningful, including the web designer and the PR guys.  And why they announce these things before a manual is available, or even the specs are set in stone, is beyond me.   I have to assume we're not the target audience, but these are really geeky devices, so who is?Moog Inc: "This is a statement piece -- A limited edition tribute to the origins of electronic music, but also to Clara Rockmore..." - I wonder if they are really planning on not making many of these, or if that's just sales pressure talk (buy one now before they're all gone!)?  I mean, why expend the NRE on a dead end product?   I suppose they didn't want to resurrect the EWPro (that thing must be a PITA to manufacture) but Theremins are kind of their thing, so maybe this is a short-term answer to a pent-up demand?

I talked to Moog Music this morning.

They say they are not going to make any ore after the pre order period is over.

Posted: 10/23/2020 5:10:44 PM
robonil

From: santiago, chile

Joined: 3/17/2006

1) I can say the timbre used on video its pretty similar to one factory preset of E pro, that explains they used the same analog circuit, for me that makes me sense

Posted: 10/23/2020 5:13:03 PM
pitts8rh

From: Minnesota USA

Joined: 11/27/2015

"I haven't been here lately but I ordered mine this morning.  I missed out on the Etherwave Pro so that isn't going to happen with this one." - DiggyDog

My thoughts exactly. So did I.

I used to acquire new guitars in the hope that I would come across one with some talent.  I guess I'm hoping for the same here, even though I know it's not going to be as configurable and easy to play as Dewster's D-Lev.  But it should be interesting.  I'm mostly looking forward to the teardown...

Posted: 10/23/2020 5:23:00 PM
bendra

From: Portland, Oregon

Joined: 2/22/2018

I talked to Moog Music this morning.They say they are not going to make any ore after the pre order period is over.

Realistically, I expect they will make more (or something along the same lines) if there is enough demand and they see they can make money on it. So it's really up to us

Posted: 10/23/2020 5:35:04 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"I'm mostly looking forward to the teardown.."  - pitts8rh

Ah, I will live vicariously through that.  You are the perfect person to undertake this, and I appreciate your wallet taking one for the team.

Posted: 10/23/2020 5:46:50 PM
macteacher

Joined: 8/12/2015

This statement caught my eye above:

"Nate at Moog did state that the controls are encoders, not potentiometers."

That sounds like digital controls for the knobs that manipulate hopefully an analog signal path, similar to what they do for their synths.

The strength here is that maybe these can controls can be manipulated via MIDI.

Of course, maybe not.....

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